This afternoon, during the flight from Malmö to Rome at the conclusion of the Apostolic voyage to Sweden, Pope Francis met with journalists aboard the flight and held a press conference that lasted approximately 40 minutes.
Greg Burke
Director of the Holy See Press Centre
Thank you, Holy Father. Welcome. You speak often of journeying together, in reference to various religions. We too have travelled the road a little together, someone for the first time: we have a Swedish journalist - I believe that it has been a while since we have had a Swedish journalist aboard. Let us begin with her. Elin Swedenmark, from the Swedish agency TT.
Pope Francis
First of all, I want to greet you and thank you for the work you have done, for the cold that you have endured ... But we have left on time, because they tell me that tonight, the temperature will drop another 5 degrees. We left just in time! Thank you very much. Thank you for your company and for your work.
Elin Swedenmark
TT
Thank you. Hello. Yesterday, Holy Father, you spoke about a revolution of tenderness. At the same time, we see that more and more people are coming from other countries such as Syria and Iraq and seeking refugee status in European countries. But some of them react with fear or sometimes there are people who think that the arrival of these refugees can threaten the culture of Christian Europe. What is your message for people who are fearful of the development of such a situation, and what is your message for Sweden who after such a long tradition of welcoming refugees, are now beginning to close their borders?
Pope Francis
First of all, as an Argentinian and a South American, I want to thank Sweden very much for this welcome, because during the time of the military dictatorships, many Argentinians, Chileans, Uruguayans were welcomed by Swedes. Sweden has a long tradition of welcome. They not only receive, but they integrate, they immediately look for a home, a school, for work ... for ways to integrate into society. They told me the statistics - maybe I am wrong, I am not sure - but as I remember it - I may be wrong - how many people are there in Sweden? Nine million? Of these 9 million - they tell me - 850,000 are new Swedes, migrants or refugees or their children. This is the first thing. Second: we should distinguish between migrants and refugees, no? A migrant should be treated with certain rules because migration is a right but it is a very regulated right. On the other hand, to be a refugee is a result of a reality of war, of anguish, of hunger, of a terrible situation and the status of refugee needs more care, more work. Even in this case, Sweden seems to have provided a systematic example, helping refugees to learn the language, the culture and even to integrate them into their new-found culture. Concerning this aspect of integration of cultures, we should not be afraid because Europe was formed through a continuous integration of cultures, many cultures ... I think that - I'm not saying this in any offensive way, no, no, but out of curiosity - the fact that today in Iceland, practically speaking an Icelander, with the Icelandic language of today, can read his classic literature from a thousand years ago with no difficulty, that means that it is a country with very little immigration, fewer waves than Europe has seen. Europe was formed through migration ...
Then, what I think about the countries who are closing their borders: I believe that in theory, we cannot close our hearts to refugees, but our governments do need to be prudent: they must be very open to receiving others, but they must also do their homework about how they can accommodate them, because a refugee needs not only to be received but also integrated. And if a country has a capacity of twenty, so to speak, to integrate them, this is what they must do. If they can do more, they should do more. But always with an open heart: it is not human to close doors, it is not human to close hearts, and in the long run, this pays off. Here, they pay politically; just like you have to pay politically because of imprudent calculations, receiving more people than they can integrate. Why, what is the danger when a refugee or a migrant - this is true for both cases - doesn't integrate, is not integrated? If you will allow me the word - it may be a new word - to ghetoize, that is to gather them in a ghetto. This phenomenon creates a culture that does not develop in relation to other cultures, and this is dangerous. I believe that the worst advice for a country is that it should close its borders because of fear, and the best advice is prudence.
I spoke with a Swedish government employee, during these days, and he told me about the difficulties they are facing at the moment - this is true for the last of your questions - there are some difficulties because many people are coming and there is not enough time to get things organized: to find schools, houses, work, to learn the language. Prudence should make this calculation. But Sweden ... I do not believe that if Sweden were to diminish her capacity to welcome, it would do so for reasons of egotism or because it has lost its capacity; if there is some truth in this last thing that I have said: today, many people are looking to Sweden to be a model because they do not know how to be welcoming, but there is not enough time to organize things for them to stay. I do not know whether I've answered your question. Thank you.
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holy Father. Now, a question from Swedish television: Anna Cristina Kappelin, from Sveriges TV.
Anna Cristina Kappelin
Sveriges TV
Good morning. Sweden, which hosted this important ecumenical encounter, has a woman at the head of its own Church. What do you think? Is it realistic to think of the possibility of female priests also in the Catholic Church in the coming decades? And if not, why? Are Catholic priests not afraid of the competition?
Pope Francis
Reading a bit of the history of this zone, where we have been, I have seen that there was once a queen who was three times a widow; and I said: This woman is strong! And they said to me: Swedish women are very strong, very good, and that's why some of the Swedish men are looking for women from other nations. I don't know if it is true! ... About the ordination of women in the Catholic Church, the last clear word was spoken by Saint John Paul II, and this remains. This remains. About competition, I do not know ...
Another question was asked by the same reporter, out of range of the microphones
Pope Francis
If we read the declaration made by Saint John Paul II very well, it follows this line of reasoning. Yes. But women can do many things, better than men can. Even in the field of dogma - to clarify, perhaps to give a bit of clarity, not only to make reference to a document - in Catholic ecclesiology, there are two dimensions: the Petrine dimension, which is the line of the apostles - Peter and the college of apostles, which is the work of the bishops - and the Marian dimension, which is the female dimension of the Church. This is something that I have said more than once. I wonder, who is more important in the theology and in the mysticism of the Church: the apostles or Mary, on the day of Pentecost? Mary! What's more: the Church is a woman. We speak of her (the Church), not him. She is the Church, the bride of Jesus Christ. It is a spousal mystery. And in the light of this mystery we understand the why of these two dimensions: the Petrine dimension, which is episcopal; and the Marian dimension, with all that refers to the maternity of the Church, but in a more profound sense. The Church cannot exist without her feminine dimension, because she herself is feminine.
Greg Burke
Thank you. Now, we have a question from Austen Ivereigh, I don't know whether he will speak in Spanish or in Porteño ... perhaps Eva Fernandez can come closer to help ...
Austin Ivereigh
(in Spanish)
Thank you, Holy Father. This autumn has been very rich with various ecumenical meetings with traditional Churches: the Orthodox, Anglicans and now Lutherans. However the majority of Protestants in the world now follow the evangelical tradition: Pentecostals ... I understand that on the eve of Pentecost next year, there will be a ceremony at the Circus Maximus celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Charismatic Renewal. You have undertaken many initiatives - perhaps this is the first time for a Pope - in 2014 with Evangelical leaders. What has become of all those initiatives and what do you hope to achieve through the meeting, the meeting next year? Thank you very much.
Pope Francis
(in Spanish)
With this initiative ... I would say that I have undertaken two kinds of initiatives. One when I went to Caserta, to the Charismatic Church, and the other along the same line in Turin when I went to visit the Valdensian Church. This was an initiative of reparation and a request for forgiveness, because Catholics ... leaving, leaving the Catholic Church is not Christian behaviour, well, to challenge them. And it was a matter of asking for forgiveness and healing a wound.
The other initiative was one of dialogue, and this was already begun in Buenos Aires. In Buenos Aires, for example, there were three meetings in Luna Park which has a capacity of 7,000 people. Three meetings with Evangelical and Catholic faithful along the lines of the Charismatic Renewal, but also open. These were all-day meetings: a pastor preached, an evangelical bishop and a Catholic priest preached, or a Catholic bishop; or two and two, they alternated. In two of these meetings, if not in three, but in two for sure, Father Cantalamessa preached, the Preacher of the Papal Household.
I believe that this is something that began during previous Pontificates, when I was still in Buenos Aires, and this was very well done. We also experienced spiritual retreats, three days with pastors and priests together, also involving preachers who were pastors and a priest or a bishop. And this helped the dialogue a lot, our understanding, we drew closer together, the work ... above all the work with people in need. Together. This is respect, great respect. This refers to the initiatives, already in progress in Buenos Aires ... Here in Rome I have had various meetings with pastors, there have already been two or three. Some of them came from the USA, and from Europe.
Then, what you mentioned was the celebration organized by the ICCRS (International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services), the celebration for 50 years of the Charismatic Renewal, which was an ecumenical project, and therefore it will be an ecumenical celebration in this sense, and it will take place at the Circus Maximus. I predict - if God should grant me to see it - that I will be there to speak. It seems that for two days, although nothing is yet organized. I know that there will be a Pentecost vigil, and I will speak at some time. As to the Charismatic Renewal and the Pentecostals: the word pentecostal, the pentecostal denomination is ambiguous, because it refers to many things, many associations, many ecclesial communities that are not the same, in fact, communities that are opposed to one another. So we need to be more precise. That is, it has become so widespread that it has become an ambiguous term. In Brazil, this is typical, it has spread a lot.
The Charismatic Renewal was born ... - and one of the first opponents who was in Argentina is the one who is speaking with you now - because I was the Provincial of the Jesuits at the time, when it began in Argentina, and I had prohibited the Jesuits from having anything to do with the movement. I said publicly that when there was a liturgical celebration, they had to do something liturgical, and not a samba school. That's what I said. And today, I think the opposite, when things are done well.
Indeed, in Buenos Aires, every year, once a year we held a Mass in the Cathedral with the Charismatic Renewal Movement, and everyone would come. Then, I too came to recognize the good that the Renewal had done in the Church. And do not forget the great figure of Cardinal Suenens, who had this prophetic and ecumenical vision.
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holy Father. Now, Eva Fernández from Cadena Cope, for Spanish radio.
Eva Fernández
(in Spanish)
Holy Father, I would like to ask you this question in Italian, but I still don't feel fluent enough. A short time ago, you were with Nicolás Maduro, the President of Venezuela. What did you feel about this meeting, and what is your opinion about the beginning of the talks? Thank you, Holy Father.
Pope Francis
Yes, the President of Venezuela asked for a meeting and an appointment because he was coming from the Middle East, from Qatar, from the other Emirates and was making a technical stop in Rome. He had asked for the meeting before. He came in 2013; and he had asked for another appointment, but he was sick and couldn't come; and he had asked for another appointment. When a president asks, I receive him, and what's more, he was in Rome, on a stop-over. I received him, for 30 minutes, and that appointment; I listened, I asked a few questions and I heard his opinion. It's always good to hear other opinions. I listened to his opinon. In reference to the second aspect, dialogue: it is the only way to resolve conflicts! For all conflicts. Either we talk together or we cry, but there is no other option.
I put my heart into dialogue and I believe that we should go down that road. I don't know how it will end up, I don't know, because it is very complicated, but people who are committed to dialogue are people of politically important stature. Zapatero, who served twice as President of the government of Spain, and Restrepo (and all the parties) asked the Holy See to be present during their dialogue. And the Holy See appointed the Nuncio in Argentina, Archbishop Tscherrig, I believe he was the one who was there at the negotiation table. Dialogue that favours negotiation is the only way to get away from conflicts, there is no other way ... If the Middle East were to do this, how many lives would be spared! (Note: Archbishop Tscherring substituted for Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli during the first first meeting. Archbishop Celli had been designated as the one to accompany the negotiations).
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holy Father. Now, from Radio France, here is Mathilde Imberty.
Mathilde Imberty
Radio France
Your Holiness, we are on our way back from Sweden, where secularism is very strong; this is a phenomenon that touches Europe in general. Even in a country such as France, it would appear that in the coming years the majority of citizens will be without any religion. In your opinion, is secularism inevitable? Who are the responsible ones, the secular government or the Church who is too timid? Thank you.
Pope Francis
Inevitable, no. I do not believe in inevitability! Who are the ones who are responsible? I couldn't say ... You (that is everyone) are responsible. I don't know, it's a process ... But first of all, I want to say one little thing. Pope Benedict XVI has spoken often about this, and he has done so clearly. When faith becomes lukewarm, it is as you say, because the Church is weakened … The most secularized times … But let’s think of France, for instance, the times of the worldliness of the Court: the times in which priests were abbots of the Court, it was clerical functionalism … But the strength of evangelization was lacking, the strength of the Gospel. When there is secularization we can always say that there is some weakening of evangelization, that’s true … But there is also another process, a cultural process, a process – I believe I spoke about this once – of a second form of inculturation, when man received the world from God, to cultivate it, to make it grow, to dominate over it, at a certain point man felt himself to be master of that culture – we can think of the myth of the Tower of Babel – he is such a master of that culture that he begins to be the creator of another culture, other than his own, and occupies the place of God the Creator. He is the self-sufficient man. It’s not a problem of secularity, because a holy secularity is needed, which is the autonomy of things, the healthy autonomy of things, the healthy autonomy of the sciences, of thought, of politics — a holy secularity is necessary. No, something else is a secularity left to us to a degree by the legacy of the Enlightenment.
I believe it is these two things: to a degree the self-sufficiency of man - creator of culture - but who goes beyond the limits and thinks of himself as God, and also to a degree weakness in evangelization, which becomes lukewarm and then Christians become lukewarm. We are saved here somewhat by taking up again a healthy autonomy in the development of culture and of the sciences, also with a sense of dependence, of being a creature and not God and, in addition, taking up again the strength of evangelization. I believe that today this secularization is very strong in culture, and in certain cultures. It is also very strong in different forms of worldliness, spiritual worldliness, this is a way …, it is the worst thing that can happen to it, worse still than what happened in the time of corrupt Popes. And they mention some forms of Popes’ corruption, I don’t remember well, but so many. Worldliness: this, for me, is dangerous. And at the risk of this sounding like a sermon, a homily, I will say this: When Jesus prayed for us all at the Last Supper, He asked the Father for only one thing for all of us: not to take us out of the world but to defend us from the world, from worldliness. It is extremely dangerous; it is a secularization that is somewhat tricky, somewhat disguised, somewhat ready to take us away from the life of the Church. I don’t know if I’ve answered anything …
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holiness. Now Jurgen Erbacher from ZDF German television.
Jurgen Erbacher
ZDF German television
Your Holiness, a few days ago you met with the Santa Marta Group, which is concerned with the fight against modern slavery and human trafficking, subjects that, according to you, you have very much at heart, not only as Pope, but already in Buenos Aires you were concerned about these subjects. Why? Was it a special experience and perhaps also personal? And then, as a German, at the beginning of the year of the commemoration of the Reformation, I must ask you if you will perhaps go this year to the country where this Reformation began 500 years ago?
Pope Francis
I begin with the second question. The program of trips for the coming year is not made yet. Yes, we know only that it’s almost certain that I will go to India and Bangladesh, but it hasn’t been set, it’s a hypothesis.
About the first question: yes, in Buenos Aires, as a priest, for a long time I had this anxiety about the flesh of Christ — the fact that Christ continues to suffer; that Christ is continuously crucified in his weakest brothers, is something that always moved me. As a priest I worked, did little things with the poor, but not exclusively. I worked also with University students … Then, as Bishop of Buenos Aires we undertook initiatives, also with non-Catholic and non-believing groups against slave labor, especially that of Latin American immigrants who were arriving, who continue to arrive, in Argentina. They take away their passports and make them engage in slave labor in industries, locked inside …. Once one of them caught fire and they had the children there on the terrace, all dead, and some who were unable to flee … They were truly slaves, and this moved me – the trafficking of persons. And I worked also with two Congregations of Sisters who worked with prostitutes, women slaves of prostitution. I don’t like to say prostitutes: slaves of prostitution. Then, once a year, all these slaves of the system had a Mass in Constitution Square, which is one of those where trains arrive – like the Termini in Rome, think of the Termini – and we had a Mass there with all of them. All the organizations, the Sisters that worked there and also groups of non-believers, but with whom we worked together, all came to this Mass.
And here the same work is done. There are so many groups here in Italy, groups of volunteers that work against every form of slavery, be it of labor or of women. Some months ago I visited one of these organizations, and the people … There is good work done here in Italy by volunteers. I would never have thought it was like this. It’s a good thing that Italy has – the volunteers. And this is due to parish priests. The Oratory and volunteers are two things that were born out of the apostolic zeal of Italian parish priests. But I don’t know if I’ve answered or if there is something else …
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holiness. We are told that if we want to eat we must go.
Pope Francis
I thank you again for the questions, thank you so much, thank you so much! And pray for me. Have a good lunch!
Transcription of the Press Conference
held aboard the flight from Malmö to Rome
Greg Burke
Director of the Holy See Press Centre
Thank you, Holy Father. Welcome. You speak often of journeying together, in reference to various religions. We too have travelled the road a little together, someone for the first time: we have a Swedish journalist - I believe that it has been a while since we have had a Swedish journalist aboard. Let us begin with her. Elin Swedenmark, from the Swedish agency TT.
Pope Francis
First of all, I want to greet you and thank you for the work you have done, for the cold that you have endured ... But we have left on time, because they tell me that tonight, the temperature will drop another 5 degrees. We left just in time! Thank you very much. Thank you for your company and for your work.
Elin Swedenmark
TT
Thank you. Hello. Yesterday, Holy Father, you spoke about a revolution of tenderness. At the same time, we see that more and more people are coming from other countries such as Syria and Iraq and seeking refugee status in European countries. But some of them react with fear or sometimes there are people who think that the arrival of these refugees can threaten the culture of Christian Europe. What is your message for people who are fearful of the development of such a situation, and what is your message for Sweden who after such a long tradition of welcoming refugees, are now beginning to close their borders?
Pope Francis
First of all, as an Argentinian and a South American, I want to thank Sweden very much for this welcome, because during the time of the military dictatorships, many Argentinians, Chileans, Uruguayans were welcomed by Swedes. Sweden has a long tradition of welcome. They not only receive, but they integrate, they immediately look for a home, a school, for work ... for ways to integrate into society. They told me the statistics - maybe I am wrong, I am not sure - but as I remember it - I may be wrong - how many people are there in Sweden? Nine million? Of these 9 million - they tell me - 850,000 are new Swedes, migrants or refugees or their children. This is the first thing. Second: we should distinguish between migrants and refugees, no? A migrant should be treated with certain rules because migration is a right but it is a very regulated right. On the other hand, to be a refugee is a result of a reality of war, of anguish, of hunger, of a terrible situation and the status of refugee needs more care, more work. Even in this case, Sweden seems to have provided a systematic example, helping refugees to learn the language, the culture and even to integrate them into their new-found culture. Concerning this aspect of integration of cultures, we should not be afraid because Europe was formed through a continuous integration of cultures, many cultures ... I think that - I'm not saying this in any offensive way, no, no, but out of curiosity - the fact that today in Iceland, practically speaking an Icelander, with the Icelandic language of today, can read his classic literature from a thousand years ago with no difficulty, that means that it is a country with very little immigration, fewer waves than Europe has seen. Europe was formed through migration ...
Then, what I think about the countries who are closing their borders: I believe that in theory, we cannot close our hearts to refugees, but our governments do need to be prudent: they must be very open to receiving others, but they must also do their homework about how they can accommodate them, because a refugee needs not only to be received but also integrated. And if a country has a capacity of twenty, so to speak, to integrate them, this is what they must do. If they can do more, they should do more. But always with an open heart: it is not human to close doors, it is not human to close hearts, and in the long run, this pays off. Here, they pay politically; just like you have to pay politically because of imprudent calculations, receiving more people than they can integrate. Why, what is the danger when a refugee or a migrant - this is true for both cases - doesn't integrate, is not integrated? If you will allow me the word - it may be a new word - to ghetoize, that is to gather them in a ghetto. This phenomenon creates a culture that does not develop in relation to other cultures, and this is dangerous. I believe that the worst advice for a country is that it should close its borders because of fear, and the best advice is prudence.
I spoke with a Swedish government employee, during these days, and he told me about the difficulties they are facing at the moment - this is true for the last of your questions - there are some difficulties because many people are coming and there is not enough time to get things organized: to find schools, houses, work, to learn the language. Prudence should make this calculation. But Sweden ... I do not believe that if Sweden were to diminish her capacity to welcome, it would do so for reasons of egotism or because it has lost its capacity; if there is some truth in this last thing that I have said: today, many people are looking to Sweden to be a model because they do not know how to be welcoming, but there is not enough time to organize things for them to stay. I do not know whether I've answered your question. Thank you.
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holy Father. Now, a question from Swedish television: Anna Cristina Kappelin, from Sveriges TV.
Anna Cristina Kappelin
Sveriges TV
Good morning. Sweden, which hosted this important ecumenical encounter, has a woman at the head of its own Church. What do you think? Is it realistic to think of the possibility of female priests also in the Catholic Church in the coming decades? And if not, why? Are Catholic priests not afraid of the competition?
Pope Francis
Reading a bit of the history of this zone, where we have been, I have seen that there was once a queen who was three times a widow; and I said: This woman is strong! And they said to me: Swedish women are very strong, very good, and that's why some of the Swedish men are looking for women from other nations. I don't know if it is true! ... About the ordination of women in the Catholic Church, the last clear word was spoken by Saint John Paul II, and this remains. This remains. About competition, I do not know ...
Another question was asked by the same reporter, out of range of the microphones
Pope Francis
If we read the declaration made by Saint John Paul II very well, it follows this line of reasoning. Yes. But women can do many things, better than men can. Even in the field of dogma - to clarify, perhaps to give a bit of clarity, not only to make reference to a document - in Catholic ecclesiology, there are two dimensions: the Petrine dimension, which is the line of the apostles - Peter and the college of apostles, which is the work of the bishops - and the Marian dimension, which is the female dimension of the Church. This is something that I have said more than once. I wonder, who is more important in the theology and in the mysticism of the Church: the apostles or Mary, on the day of Pentecost? Mary! What's more: the Church is a woman. We speak of her (the Church), not him. She is the Church, the bride of Jesus Christ. It is a spousal mystery. And in the light of this mystery we understand the why of these two dimensions: the Petrine dimension, which is episcopal; and the Marian dimension, with all that refers to the maternity of the Church, but in a more profound sense. The Church cannot exist without her feminine dimension, because she herself is feminine.
Greg Burke
Thank you. Now, we have a question from Austen Ivereigh, I don't know whether he will speak in Spanish or in Porteño ... perhaps Eva Fernandez can come closer to help ...
Austin Ivereigh
(in Spanish)
Thank you, Holy Father. This autumn has been very rich with various ecumenical meetings with traditional Churches: the Orthodox, Anglicans and now Lutherans. However the majority of Protestants in the world now follow the evangelical tradition: Pentecostals ... I understand that on the eve of Pentecost next year, there will be a ceremony at the Circus Maximus celebrating the 50th anniversary of the Charismatic Renewal. You have undertaken many initiatives - perhaps this is the first time for a Pope - in 2014 with Evangelical leaders. What has become of all those initiatives and what do you hope to achieve through the meeting, the meeting next year? Thank you very much.
Pope Francis
(in Spanish)
With this initiative ... I would say that I have undertaken two kinds of initiatives. One when I went to Caserta, to the Charismatic Church, and the other along the same line in Turin when I went to visit the Valdensian Church. This was an initiative of reparation and a request for forgiveness, because Catholics ... leaving, leaving the Catholic Church is not Christian behaviour, well, to challenge them. And it was a matter of asking for forgiveness and healing a wound.
The other initiative was one of dialogue, and this was already begun in Buenos Aires. In Buenos Aires, for example, there were three meetings in Luna Park which has a capacity of 7,000 people. Three meetings with Evangelical and Catholic faithful along the lines of the Charismatic Renewal, but also open. These were all-day meetings: a pastor preached, an evangelical bishop and a Catholic priest preached, or a Catholic bishop; or two and two, they alternated. In two of these meetings, if not in three, but in two for sure, Father Cantalamessa preached, the Preacher of the Papal Household.
I believe that this is something that began during previous Pontificates, when I was still in Buenos Aires, and this was very well done. We also experienced spiritual retreats, three days with pastors and priests together, also involving preachers who were pastors and a priest or a bishop. And this helped the dialogue a lot, our understanding, we drew closer together, the work ... above all the work with people in need. Together. This is respect, great respect. This refers to the initiatives, already in progress in Buenos Aires ... Here in Rome I have had various meetings with pastors, there have already been two or three. Some of them came from the USA, and from Europe.
Then, what you mentioned was the celebration organized by the ICCRS (International Catholic Charismatic Renewal Services), the celebration for 50 years of the Charismatic Renewal, which was an ecumenical project, and therefore it will be an ecumenical celebration in this sense, and it will take place at the Circus Maximus. I predict - if God should grant me to see it - that I will be there to speak. It seems that for two days, although nothing is yet organized. I know that there will be a Pentecost vigil, and I will speak at some time. As to the Charismatic Renewal and the Pentecostals: the word pentecostal, the pentecostal denomination is ambiguous, because it refers to many things, many associations, many ecclesial communities that are not the same, in fact, communities that are opposed to one another. So we need to be more precise. That is, it has become so widespread that it has become an ambiguous term. In Brazil, this is typical, it has spread a lot.
The Charismatic Renewal was born ... - and one of the first opponents who was in Argentina is the one who is speaking with you now - because I was the Provincial of the Jesuits at the time, when it began in Argentina, and I had prohibited the Jesuits from having anything to do with the movement. I said publicly that when there was a liturgical celebration, they had to do something liturgical, and not a samba school. That's what I said. And today, I think the opposite, when things are done well.
Indeed, in Buenos Aires, every year, once a year we held a Mass in the Cathedral with the Charismatic Renewal Movement, and everyone would come. Then, I too came to recognize the good that the Renewal had done in the Church. And do not forget the great figure of Cardinal Suenens, who had this prophetic and ecumenical vision.
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holy Father. Now, Eva Fernández from Cadena Cope, for Spanish radio.
Eva Fernández
(in Spanish)
Holy Father, I would like to ask you this question in Italian, but I still don't feel fluent enough. A short time ago, you were with Nicolás Maduro, the President of Venezuela. What did you feel about this meeting, and what is your opinion about the beginning of the talks? Thank you, Holy Father.
Pope Francis
Yes, the President of Venezuela asked for a meeting and an appointment because he was coming from the Middle East, from Qatar, from the other Emirates and was making a technical stop in Rome. He had asked for the meeting before. He came in 2013; and he had asked for another appointment, but he was sick and couldn't come; and he had asked for another appointment. When a president asks, I receive him, and what's more, he was in Rome, on a stop-over. I received him, for 30 minutes, and that appointment; I listened, I asked a few questions and I heard his opinion. It's always good to hear other opinions. I listened to his opinon. In reference to the second aspect, dialogue: it is the only way to resolve conflicts! For all conflicts. Either we talk together or we cry, but there is no other option.
I put my heart into dialogue and I believe that we should go down that road. I don't know how it will end up, I don't know, because it is very complicated, but people who are committed to dialogue are people of politically important stature. Zapatero, who served twice as President of the government of Spain, and Restrepo (and all the parties) asked the Holy See to be present during their dialogue. And the Holy See appointed the Nuncio in Argentina, Archbishop Tscherrig, I believe he was the one who was there at the negotiation table. Dialogue that favours negotiation is the only way to get away from conflicts, there is no other way ... If the Middle East were to do this, how many lives would be spared! (Note: Archbishop Tscherring substituted for Archbishop Claudio Maria Celli during the first first meeting. Archbishop Celli had been designated as the one to accompany the negotiations).
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holy Father. Now, from Radio France, here is Mathilde Imberty.
Mathilde Imberty
Radio France
Your Holiness, we are on our way back from Sweden, where secularism is very strong; this is a phenomenon that touches Europe in general. Even in a country such as France, it would appear that in the coming years the majority of citizens will be without any religion. In your opinion, is secularism inevitable? Who are the responsible ones, the secular government or the Church who is too timid? Thank you.
Pope Francis
Inevitable, no. I do not believe in inevitability! Who are the ones who are responsible? I couldn't say ... You (that is everyone) are responsible. I don't know, it's a process ... But first of all, I want to say one little thing. Pope Benedict XVI has spoken often about this, and he has done so clearly. When faith becomes lukewarm, it is as you say, because the Church is weakened … The most secularized times … But let’s think of France, for instance, the times of the worldliness of the Court: the times in which priests were abbots of the Court, it was clerical functionalism … But the strength of evangelization was lacking, the strength of the Gospel. When there is secularization we can always say that there is some weakening of evangelization, that’s true … But there is also another process, a cultural process, a process – I believe I spoke about this once – of a second form of inculturation, when man received the world from God, to cultivate it, to make it grow, to dominate over it, at a certain point man felt himself to be master of that culture – we can think of the myth of the Tower of Babel – he is such a master of that culture that he begins to be the creator of another culture, other than his own, and occupies the place of God the Creator. He is the self-sufficient man. It’s not a problem of secularity, because a holy secularity is needed, which is the autonomy of things, the healthy autonomy of things, the healthy autonomy of the sciences, of thought, of politics — a holy secularity is necessary. No, something else is a secularity left to us to a degree by the legacy of the Enlightenment.
I believe it is these two things: to a degree the self-sufficiency of man - creator of culture - but who goes beyond the limits and thinks of himself as God, and also to a degree weakness in evangelization, which becomes lukewarm and then Christians become lukewarm. We are saved here somewhat by taking up again a healthy autonomy in the development of culture and of the sciences, also with a sense of dependence, of being a creature and not God and, in addition, taking up again the strength of evangelization. I believe that today this secularization is very strong in culture, and in certain cultures. It is also very strong in different forms of worldliness, spiritual worldliness, this is a way …, it is the worst thing that can happen to it, worse still than what happened in the time of corrupt Popes. And they mention some forms of Popes’ corruption, I don’t remember well, but so many. Worldliness: this, for me, is dangerous. And at the risk of this sounding like a sermon, a homily, I will say this: When Jesus prayed for us all at the Last Supper, He asked the Father for only one thing for all of us: not to take us out of the world but to defend us from the world, from worldliness. It is extremely dangerous; it is a secularization that is somewhat tricky, somewhat disguised, somewhat ready to take us away from the life of the Church. I don’t know if I’ve answered anything …
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holiness. Now Jurgen Erbacher from ZDF German television.
Jurgen Erbacher
ZDF German television
Your Holiness, a few days ago you met with the Santa Marta Group, which is concerned with the fight against modern slavery and human trafficking, subjects that, according to you, you have very much at heart, not only as Pope, but already in Buenos Aires you were concerned about these subjects. Why? Was it a special experience and perhaps also personal? And then, as a German, at the beginning of the year of the commemoration of the Reformation, I must ask you if you will perhaps go this year to the country where this Reformation began 500 years ago?
Pope Francis
I begin with the second question. The program of trips for the coming year is not made yet. Yes, we know only that it’s almost certain that I will go to India and Bangladesh, but it hasn’t been set, it’s a hypothesis.
About the first question: yes, in Buenos Aires, as a priest, for a long time I had this anxiety about the flesh of Christ — the fact that Christ continues to suffer; that Christ is continuously crucified in his weakest brothers, is something that always moved me. As a priest I worked, did little things with the poor, but not exclusively. I worked also with University students … Then, as Bishop of Buenos Aires we undertook initiatives, also with non-Catholic and non-believing groups against slave labor, especially that of Latin American immigrants who were arriving, who continue to arrive, in Argentina. They take away their passports and make them engage in slave labor in industries, locked inside …. Once one of them caught fire and they had the children there on the terrace, all dead, and some who were unable to flee … They were truly slaves, and this moved me – the trafficking of persons. And I worked also with two Congregations of Sisters who worked with prostitutes, women slaves of prostitution. I don’t like to say prostitutes: slaves of prostitution. Then, once a year, all these slaves of the system had a Mass in Constitution Square, which is one of those where trains arrive – like the Termini in Rome, think of the Termini – and we had a Mass there with all of them. All the organizations, the Sisters that worked there and also groups of non-believers, but with whom we worked together, all came to this Mass.
And here the same work is done. There are so many groups here in Italy, groups of volunteers that work against every form of slavery, be it of labor or of women. Some months ago I visited one of these organizations, and the people … There is good work done here in Italy by volunteers. I would never have thought it was like this. It’s a good thing that Italy has – the volunteers. And this is due to parish priests. The Oratory and volunteers are two things that were born out of the apostolic zeal of Italian parish priests. But I don’t know if I’ve answered or if there is something else …
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holiness. We are told that if we want to eat we must go.
Pope Francis
I thank you again for the questions, thank you so much, thank you so much! And pray for me. Have a good lunch!
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