During the flight from Juárez city to Rome at the conclusion of the Apostolic Voyage to Mexico, Pope Francis held a press conference with media reporters aboard the flight.
Father Lombardi
Holy Father, thank you for being here, as you do at the end of every voyage, for a summary conversation, a great glance at the trip that has just been completed, and your availability to respond to many questions from our international community. As usual, we have asked the various language groups to organize themselves in order to present a few questions, but of course let us begin with our Mexican colleagues. So, we ask you to respond in Spanish to the first two, and then afterwards in Italian, so that others of our colleagues can better understand.
So, the first person who will ask a question is Maria Eugenia Jimenez Calíz from Milenio, which is an important Mexican journal.
Maria Eugenia Jimenez Calíz
Milenio
Holy Father, there are thousands of missing persons in Mexico, but the case of the Ayotzinapa 43 is emblematic. I want to ask you why you did not meet with their families, and also a message for the family members of the thousands of missing persons ...
Pope Francis
Truly, if you read my messages, you will find continual references to assassinations, deaths, and lives taken by all these bands of drug traffickers, and by traffickers of human beings. I spoke about these problems as one of the wounds from which Mexico suffers. There have been some attempts to receive people, and there were many groups, even opposed to each other, with internal battles. Therefore I preferred to say that at the Mass I would have seen everyone, in the Mass at Juárez if they preferred, or at another, but I was open to this eventuality. It was practically impossible to receive all the groups who, on the other hand, were opposed to each other. It is a difficult situation to understand clearly, for me, as a foreigner. But I believe that Mexican society is a victim of this: of crimes, of this tendency to make people disappear, to discard them. I spoke about this in my speeches where I could. It is a great source of pain that I bear, as this people does not deserve to experience a tragedy like this.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. And now, we move on to Javier Solorzano Zinser from Canal Once.
Javier Solorzano Zinser
Canal Once
Thank you very much. Pope Francis, thank you very much. The theme of pedophilia, as you know, has very dangerous roots in Mexico, very painful. The case of Father Maciel has left deep scars, above all in the victims. The victims continue to feel that they are not protected by the Church; many of them continue to be people of faith, and some of them have become priests. I want to know what you think about this theme, if at some time you thought about meeting the victims and, in general, the idea of priests, when they are discovered to be in a case of this nature, most often they are assigned to different parishes and nothing more. How do you see all of this? ... and thank you very much.
Pope Francis
Ok, let us begin with the second question. A bishop who moves a priest to a different parish if he detects a case of pedophilia is without conscience and the best thing for him to do would be to resign. Secondly, I would like to return to the Maciel case. Here I would like to render homage to a man who battled in a moment in which he did not have the strength to impose himself, to the point of being able to do so: Cardinal Ratzinger, a man who had all the documentation. When he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he had all the documentation in his hands; he carried out investigations … but was not able continue until the end. But if you remember, ten days before Saint John Paul II died, that Good Friday Via Crucis, he said to all the Church that it was necessary to clean up all the filth in the Church. In the Mass Pro Eligendo Pontifice – he was no fool, he knew he was a candidate – he did not try to conceal his position, he said exactly the same thing. That is, he was the courageous man who greatly helped to open this door. Thirdly, we are working hard. Along with the Cardinal Secretary of State, in discussion, and also with the group of nine cardinal counsellors, I decided to appoint a third adjunct secretariat to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which is occupied exclusively with these cases, because the Congregation is unable to manage them with all it has to do, and therefore this secretariat knows how to manage this. Furthermore, the Court of Appeal was convened, presided over by Monsignor Scicluna, which is dealing with the cases of second instance, on appeal … Another thing that is working very well is the Commission for the Protection of Minors … With regard to Maciel, returning to the Congregation, action has been taken and now the Congregation, the governance of the Congregation is semi-commissioned, or rather the Superior General is elected by the Council, by the General Chapter, but the Vicar is chosen by the Pope. Two General Counsellors are elected by the General Chapter and the other two are chosen by the Pope, so that we are able to help them to review old accounts.
Father Lombardi
Thank you.
Pope Francis
If any of you did not understand, please ask one of the Spanish-speaking reporters to explain the things that I have said.
Father Lombardi
So, now we pass the microphone to Phil Pullella from Reuters, who we all know very well.
Phil Pullella
Reuters
Good evening, Holiness, Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigrants. On the other side of the border, however, there is a rather tough electoral campaign in progress. One of the candidates to the White House, the Republican Donald Trump, recently said in an interview that His Holiness is a man of politics or indeed even a pawn in the hands of the Mexican government to favour a policy of immigration. He has declared that, if elected, he intends to construct a 2,500 kilometre wall along the border between Mexico and the United States, and to deport eleven million illegal immigrants, thus separating families, and so on. I would like to ask, first of all, what you think of these accusations and whether an American Catholic can vote for such a person.
Pope Francis
I thank God that he has said I am a politician, since Aristotle defined the human being as an animal politicus: at least I am a human being! And that I am a pawn … perhaps, I do not know. I will leave that to your judgement, to the people. A person who thinks only of building walls, wherever that may be, and not bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. With regard to what I would advise, to vote or not to vote: I would not like to become involved. I would say only that this man is not Christian. It is necessary to see if he has said these things, and for this reason I would give the benefit of the doubt.
Father Lombardi
Thank you very much. Now, we give the microphone to Jean-Louis de la Vaissière from France Presse, representing the French group.
Jean-Louis de la Vaissière
France Presse
The encounter with the Russian patriarch Kirill and the signing of the Joint Declaration was acclaimed throughout the world as an historic step. But now, already, in Ukraine the Greek Catholics feel betrayed and speak about a political document, supporting Russian policy. On the ground, the war of words has broken out again. Do you think that you will continue in Moscow? Did you invite the Patriarch ... or do you intend to go to Crete to greet the pan-orthodox Council in the Spring?
Pope Francis
Let us begin at the end. I will be present, spiritually and with a message. I would like to go, to greet the pan-orthodox Council: they are brothers, but I have to respect them. I know that they would like to invite Catholic observers, and this is a good bridge. Behind the observers, I will be there, praying with the best of wishes that the Orthodox may continue to progress, to move forward, because they are brothers and their bishops are bishops like us. And Kirill, my brother. We hugged one another, embraced, and then we spoke for an hour ...
Father Lombardi
... two hours!
Pope Francis
... two hours! Two hours during which we spoke as brothers, sincerely, and no one knows the things we spoke about, only what was said at the end, publicly, regarding the things we discussed together. Third: that article, the declaration in Ukraine. When I read that, I was a bit preoccupied, because it was Svjatoslav Ševčuk who had said that the Ukrainian people, or some Ukrainians, or many Ukrainians feel deeply disappointed and betrayed. First of all, I know Svjatoslav well: we worked together for four years in Buenos Aires. When he was elected - at 42 years of age, a good man! - he was elected Major Archbishop and returned to Buenos Aires to take his things. He came to me and presented me with an icon - small, like this - of the Madonna of Tendernes and he said: This has accompanied me all my life: I want to leave it with you, who have accompanied me during these four years. This was one of the little things that I had sent to me from Buenos Aires and I still have it on my desk. He is a man for whom I have respect and who I know, we speak to each other as friends, and this is why the article seemed a bit strange. I remembered one thing that I have said to you: to understand a piece of news, a declaration, we need to search out the hermeneutic (the proper interpretation) behind it. When did he say this? It was said in a declaration on February 14, a Sunday, last Sunday. An interview that he granted to his father ... I don't remember, a Ukrainian priest; in Ukraine, granted and published. That news - the interview is two pages and a bit long, more or less - that news is in the third-to-last paragraph, so small. I read the interview, and I would say this: Ševčuk - this is the dogmatic part - declares himself a son of the Church, in communion with the Bishop of rome, with the Church; he speaks of the Pope, of his closeness to the Pope, and about himself, about his faith, and also about the faith of the Orthodox people. There is no difficulty with his dogmatics, they are orthodox in the good sense of the word, that is to say, Catholic doctrine. Then, as in every interview - this one for example - everyone has the right to say his piece, and this was not done with respect to that meeting, because in the meeting, they said: It's a good thing and we should carry on. In this second chapter, the personal ideas that a person has. For example, what I have said about the bishops who move pedophile priests, that the best we can do is to retire them, that's one thing ... it is not dogmatic, but it is something that I think. In this way, he has his proper ideas which are open to dialogue, and he has the right to have them. Everything that he says is in the document: that is the problem. Concerning the facts of the meeting, he says: This is the Lord, the Spirit who continues, the embrace ...: everything is good. The Document? It is a document open to discussion. And there is something else to add: that Ukraine is in a time of war, of suffering, with many interpretations. I have named the Ukrainian people and asked for prayers and support on many occasions during the Angelus as well as during the Wednesday audiences. But the historical fact of a war ... everyone has his own ideas: how is the war going? who started it? how? what wasn't done? ... It is evident that this is a historic problem, but also an existential problem in that country, and it speaks of suffering. In this context, I insert this paragraph, and you can understand what the faithful are saying ... Svjatoslav says: Many of the faithful have called me or written to say that they are deeply disillusioned and betrayed by Rome. It is understandable that people in such a situation would feel that way. The Document is questionable on the question of Ukraine, but it says that the war would be over and that we would be making agreements; I too had personally hoped that the Minsk Accords would be observed, and not pushed aside by another that was penned by hand. The Church of Rome, the Pope has always said: Seek peace. I have received both Presidents. And for this reason, when he says that he felt this from his people, I understand, I understand. But this is not the news. The news is all. If you read the entire interview, you will see that there are some dogmatic things, there is a desire for unity, for continuing along the way, for ecumenism - he is an ecumenical man ... And there are a few opinions ... He wrote to me, when he learned about the trip, about the meeting, but as a brother, giving his opinions as a brother ... I do not mind the document; I do not mind it in the sense that we must respect the things that others have the liberty to think and in such difficult situations. And from Rome ... Now, the Nuncio is on the frontier of combat, helping the soldiers, the wounded; the Church of Rome has sent a lot of help, a lot of help. We are still seeking peace, agreements; respecting the Minsk Accord ... This is the overview. But there is no need to be intimidated by the phrase: this is a lesson - that the news should be interpreted with a hermeneutic of the whole, not of only part of the story.
Jean-Louis de la Vaissière
Did Patriarch Kirill invite you to Moscow, to go there some day?
Pope Francis
Patriarch Kirill ... I would love that ... because if I say one thing, I will have to say another, and another and another. I would prefer that what we spoke about, alone, remains only what we have said in public. This is a given. And if I say this, I will have to say something else ... no! What I said in public, what he said in public, that is what I can say about our private discussion. Otherwise, it wouldn't be private. But I can tell you: I came away from that meeting very happy. And he did too.
Father Lombardi
Thank you very much for this detailed response on such a fundamental theme. Now, we pass the microphone to Carlo Marroni, who represents the Italian group, and who was sent by Il Sole 24 Ore.
Carlo Marroni
Il Sole 24 Ore
Holy Father, My question concerns the family, a theme that you have spoken about during this voyage. In the Italian parliament, they are discussing the laws about civil unions, a theme that is leading to strong clashes in politics, but also to strong debates in society and among Catholics. In particular, I would like to know your thoughts about the theme of adoption in the case of civil unions, and concerning children's rights and children in general. Thank you.
Pope Francis
Firstly I do not know how things are in the Italian parliament. The Pope does not get involved in Italian politics. At the first meeting I had with the Italian bishops in May 2013, one of the three things I said was: with the Italian government you are on your own. The Pope is for everybody and he cannot get involved in the specific internal politics of a country. This is not the role of the Pope. What I think is what the Church thinks and has so often said – because this is not the first country to have this experience, there are so many – I think what the Church has always said about this.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. And now, now we pass the microphone to Paloma García Ovejero, from Cope, A Spaniard, as you know.
Paloma García Ovejero
Cope
Holy Father, for several weeks there has been great concern in many Latin American countries, and also in Europe, regarding the Zika virus. The greatest risk would be for pregnant women. Some authorities have proposed abortion, or avoiding pregnancy. With regard to avoiding pregnancy, on this issue, can the Church take into consideration the concept of the lesser of two evils?
Pope Francis
Abortion is not the lesser of two evils. It is a crime. A matter of letting one go in order to save the other. This is what the mafia does. It is a crime, an absolute evil. Concerning the lesser evil, avoiding the gravity of the case - we speak in terms of a conflict between the fifth and sixth commandments. Paul VI - a great man - in a difficult situation in Africa, permitted nuns to use contraceptives in cases of rape. Do not confuse the evil of avoiding pregnancy by itself, with abortion. Abortion is not a theological problem: it is a human problem, a medical problem. If one person is killed in order to save another - at best - or the best that can be achieved. It is contrary to the Hyppocratic Oath that all doctors must take. It is an evil in and of itself, but it is not a religious evil, in the beginning, no, it is a human evil. And evidently, since it is a human evil - like every case of killing - it is condemned. On the other hand, avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil. In certain cases, as in this one, or in the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear. I also urge doctors to do their utmost to find vaccines against these two mosquitos who carry the disease: we must work toward this … Thank you.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. Now, then, let us call Ludwig Ring-Eifel to speak, who is from the German Catholic Information Agency Kna.
Pope Francis
First, about the Charlemagne Prize, I had the habit of not accepting prizes or honours, not out of humility, but because I do not like these things. It's good to have a bit of madness, but I don't like such things. But in this case, I would not say I was forced, but convinced by the holy and theological stubbornness of Cardinal Kasper who was chosen by Aachen to convince me! I accepted and said yes, but in the Vatican. And I offer it to Europe, as a co-decoration for Europe, a prize so that Europe may do as I said at Strasbourg; that it may no longer be grandmother Europe but mother Europe. Secondly, reading the news the other day about this crisis - I read very little, only one newspaper (I will not say the name in order to not cause any jealousy, but you know), fifteen minutes each day, and then I inform myself about the activities of the Secretariat of State - a word that pleased me, pleased me - I'm not sure which ones of you agree and which ones don't - is the re-foundation of the European Union. I thought of the great fathers, but today where is there a Schuman, an Adenauer, the great statesmen who after the war founded the European Union. I like this idea of the re-foundation of the European Union, maybe it can be done, because Europe – I do not say it is unique, but it has a strength, a culture, a history that cannot be lost, and we must do everything so that the European Union has the strength and also the inspiration to go forward. I don't know, but this is what I think.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. And so, now we go on to Anne Thompson, from NBC News - we are in America, above America: let us give her the microphone.
Anne Thompson
NBC News
Thank you, Father Lombardi. Matteo will help me ... Holy Father, You spoke a lot about families and about the Year of Mercy during this voyage. Some are wondering, how a Church that aims to be merciful can more easily pardon a killer than those who are divorced and remarried ...
Pope Francis
I like the question! On the family, two synods have spoken. The Pope has spoken on this all year in the Wednesday Catechisms. The question is true, you posed it very well. The post-Synod document which will be published - hopefully before Easter - in one of the chapters - because there are many of them, the document reviews everything the Synod has said about conflicts, wounded families and the pastoral care of wounded families. It is one of our concerns. Another is the preparation for marriage.
When you think about it, to become a priest, it takes eight years of study and preparation, and then, after a certain time, if you can't do it, ask for a dispensation and you can go, and everything is okay. Instead, to create a Sacrament that is for life, three or four meetings ... Preparation for marriage is very very important because I believe that this is something that the Church - in common pastoral ministry, at least in my country, in South America, the Church has not valued much. For example, it does not happen so much now, but some years ago in my homeland there was a habit, something called casamiento de apuro, a marriage in haste because of an unplanned pregnancy, to protect the honour of the family. There, the spouses were not free and often this type of marriage is null. As a bishop I forbade my priests to celebrate this type of marriage. … I would say, let the baby come, let them continue as fiancées, and when they feel like they can continue for the rest of their lives, then they could go ahead, but there is a shortage in preparation for Marriage. Another very interesting chapter is the education of children: children are also the victims of family problems, but these are problems that neither the groom nor the bride want: for example, the need for work. When the Pope has no free time to speak with his brothers, when a mother has no free time to speak with her children ... When I hear the confessions of a couple who have children, I ask: How many children do you have? Some of them are afraid, for they say: The priest asked me why I don't have more ... And I tell them: I will ask you a second question: do you play with your children?, and the majority of them - almost all of them - say: But, Father, I don't have time; I work all day. Children are the victims of social problems that wound the family. This is a problem ... I am glad to hear your question. And, a third interesting thing, in the meeting with families in Tuxtla - there was a re-married couple, a second union, integrated in the pastoral work of the Church; the key phrase used by the synod, which I’ll take up again, is to integrate wounded families, remarried couples and so on in the life of the Church. But the children who are in the middle must not be forgotten. They are the primary victims, both of these wounds, and of conditions of poverty, work, and so on.
Anne Thompson
NBC News
Does this mean that they can go to communion?
Pope Francis
This is one thing ... the point of arrival. Integration into the Church does not mean receiving communion; because I know re-married Catholic couples who go to church once a year, perhaps twice: But, I go to communion!, as though communion makes them worthy of praise. It is a work of integration ... all the doors are open. But we cannot say: from one moment to the next we can go to communion. This would be a wound also for the two of them, for the couple, because it would not allow them to proceed along the path of integration. These two people were happy! They used a very beautiful expression: We do not receive Eucharistic communion but we receive communion in visiting the hospitals, in this service or that one ... Their integration has remained there. If there is something else, the Lord will tell them, but ... it is a journey, a path ...
Anne Thompson
NBC News
Thank you.
Father Lombardi
Now then, let us give the floor to Antoine-Marie Izoard, then we will return to the French group; he is from I.Media, which is a French Catholic information agency.
Antoine-Marie Izoard
I.Media
Holiness, good evening. First, allow me to say how we vaticanistas are held a bit as hostages to the Holy Father's agenda, and cannot play with our own children ... Saturday, there is a Jubilee audience; Sunday, there is the Angelus; and from Monday to Friday we have to work. Then, a word of thanks to Alberto (Gasbarri) who, along with Father Lombardi, welcomed me to Radio Vaticana 20 years ago - we are family ...
Holiness, I have a question that is a bit daring: many media have evoked and made a lot of noise about the intense relationship between John Paul II and the American philosopher Anna Tymieniecka, who had - so to speak - a great affection for the Polish Pope. In your opinion, can a Pope have such an intimate relationship with a woman? And then - if you would allow me: Do you have such an important relationship; do you have - or have you had - this type of experience?
Pope Francis
We knew this, this relationship of friendship, between John Paul II and this philosopher, when I was in Buenos Aires: one thing that we knew, even her books were known, and John Paul II was a man who questioned himself ... Then, I would say that a man who does not know how to have a good relationship with a woman - I'm not speaking about a misogynist: they are sick - is a man who is missing something. And I, also through my own personal experience, when I ask for counsel, I ask one of my collaborators, I ask a friend, a man, but I also like to hear advice from women; they have such richness to offer! They look at things from another angle. I like to say that women are the ones who build life, within their wombs, and they have - but this is a comparison that I'm making - they have a charism of providing things with which we can build. A friendship with a woman is not a sin; it is a friendship. An amorous relationship with a woman who is not your wife, this is a sin. The Pope is a man, the Pope also needs to hear the thoughts of a woman. The Pope also has a heart that can have healthy love, healthy love with a woman. There are many holy friends: Francis and Clare, Teresa and John of the Cross ... but women are still a bit ... not well considered, not totally ... We have not developed a good understanding of the good that a woman can do for the life of a priest and of the Church, in the sense of providing counsel, help and healthy friendship. Thank you.
Father Lombardi
Thank you very much. Now, we hear from Franca Giansoldati, from Il Messaggero, for the Italian group.
Franca Giansoldati
Il Messaggero
I return to the subject of law that will be voted upon in the Italian Parliament: it is a law that in some way pertains also to other States, because other States have laws regarding unions between persons of the same sex. There is a document published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which dates back to 2003, that dedicates ample attention to this matter, and what's more, it dedicates a chapter to behaviour that must guide Catholic parliamentarians in Parliament in the light of these laws, and it is said expressly that Christian parliamentarians should not vote for these laws. Since there is much confusion about this, I have desired to ask first of all whether this document from 2003 still has any value, and effectively, what kind of behaviour a Catholic parliamentarian should adopt?
And then, one thing: after Moscow and Cairo: is there another thaw that can be perceived on the horizon? That is to say, I refer to the audience that you desired with the Sunni Pope, let's call him the Imam of Al-Azhar?
Pope Francis
On this point, Monsignor Ayuso went to Cairo last week, to meet with the Assistant to the Grand Imam and also to greet the Imam. Monsignor Ayuso is the Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, which is presided over by Cardinal Tauran. I want to meet the Imam; I know that he would like this too, and we are trying to find the right way, working through Cardinal Tauran, because that is the right channel, but it will happen.
Concerning the first argument: I do not have a good recollection of that 2003 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but a Catholic who is in parliament should vote according to his own well-informed conscience: this is all that I will say. I believe that it is sufficient. I say well informed, because it is not the conscience of what appears to me. I remember that when a vote concerning marriage for persons of the same sex was voted on in Buenos Aires, the votes were tied and in the end one said to the other: Are you really seeing clearly? - No - Me neither - Let's go to dinner - If we leave there won't be a quorum. And the other person said: Well if we reach quorum, lets give our votes to Kirchner!, and the other one said: I would prefer to give them to Kirchner and not to Bergoglio! ... and so it went. This is not a well-formed conscience! Concerning persons of the same sex, I repeat what I said during the return trip from Rio de Janeiro, what is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. So, now we have the last question in the pre-arranged series with Javier Martinez Brocal from Rome Reports.
Javier Martínez Brocal
Rome Reports
Holy Father, thank you very much for this trip to Mexico: it was an honour to accompany you and to see all that we have seen. We have not yet returned to Rome and already we are thinking about future trips, about re-packing our bags. Holy Father, when will you go to Argentina, where people have been waiting for you for quite some time? And then, when will you return to Latin America or to China? ... And, a bit of a joke: During this voyage, you have spoken many times about dreams. What are your dreams? And above all, what are your nightmares?
Pope Francis
China ... to go there: I would like that very much!
I want to say one thing, something that is true about the Mexican people. They are a rich people, they have so much wealth, they are a people of surprises ... They have a culture, an ancient culture ... Do you know that today, in Mexico there are 65 languages spoken, including the indigenous languages? 65! They are a people of great faith, who have also suffered religious persecution; there are martyrs - we will soon canonize two or three of them - This is a people ... I can't explain it. They are a people who are hard to describe in simple terms because the word people is not a logical category, it is a mystical category. The Mexican people cannot explain it, this wealth, this history, this joy, this capacity to celebrate, and this tragedies about which you have asked. I cannot say anything else, except for this unity, and also that this people has managed not to fail, to not end up with many wars, and things that happen now ... There, in Juárez City, there was a period of 12 hours of peace during my visit: afterward, they will continue to fight among each other, the trafficking ... A people who still has this vitality, can only be explained by Guadalupe. I invite you to seriously study the Guadalupe effect. The Madonna is there. I find no other possible explanation. It would be good if you, as journalists ... There are some good books that explain, also explain the painting, how it came to be, what it means ... In this way, you will be able to understand such great people, so beautiful.
Father Lombardi
Thank you, Holiness. Now, we have finished the series of planned questions. Now we will hear from Mme Pigozzi, who wanted to tell you something, I don't really know what: now we give her the microphone; and then after that, we have another small coda that concerns a circumstance that everyone knows.
Caroline Pigozzi
Paris Match
Yes, Holy Father, good evening. Two things. I want to know what you asked of the Virgin of Guadalupe, because you spent a lot of time in the church praying to the Virgin of Guadalupe. Then, the second thing: whether you dream in Italian or in Spanish?
Pope Francis
Yes, I can tell you that I dream in esperanto ... I don't know how to respond to this, really. Sometimes yes, I remember, some dreams in other languages, but do I dream in a language, no; with images, yes. My psychology is like that. With words, I dream rarely. And your first question was?
Caroline Pigozzi
The first question, Holiness, You spent a lot of time praying with the Madonna ...
Pope Francis
I prayed for the world, for peace ... Many things ... Poor her, she ended up with her head like this ... I asked for forgiveness, I asked that the Church might grow healthily, I prayed for the Mexican people ... and also something that I really prayed for was that the priests would be true priests, and the sisters true sisters, and the bishops true bishops: according to the heart of the Lord. For this I prayed a lot. And then, the things that a son says to his mama are a bit secretive ... Thank you, Carolina.
Father Lombardi
Now, as you know, this will be the final voyage for Alberto Gasbarri, who is here, close by, and who many of you know very well, and to whom we are very grateful for the service he has offered during all these voyages. So, now also our colleagues want to say a word to Alberto and to present a word of gratitude. We have our dean who will speak ...
Valentina Alazraki
We will try to make a good report ... Truly, I like to joke a lot, you all know it. But, in this moment I won't risk it because I am very saddened by the thought that Alberto will not be with us on the next trip, and that is no joke because he is one of those people who is impossible to think of without seeing him right beside you over the next few months. The first time that I met him, I saw him, it was 37 years ago, he had more hair, he was a bit thinner but he was exactly the same person. I used to call him the lord of the heavens; this is the expression that comes to me. He is a gentleman from another time, not only because of his double-breasted suit and his impeccable clothing, but we have experienced so many things. He has served - as we say in the Church - three Popes; there have been many difficult moments, emergency landings, countries at war ... I have never seen him even raise an eyebrow, never a wasted word, never a nervous moment, he has never been rude to anyone. He is truly a gentleman. He is like a taylor: a great taylor who sews himself onto three different Popes as they have travelled, made to measure for three Popes. At the beginning with John Paul II, I think that it was when he began to work with Father Tucci, after Monsignor Marcinkus left, I think that Monsignor Marcinkus said to him: Look, this one is Polish; he has a hard head and you'll see all the colours. And I think that was how it was in the beginning. At the end of the pontificate, he was like a son: not only did he organize the trips but he was almost a man who every day had his physical limits and he had invented everything - a mobile throne, a mobile platform - and we saw him with such feelings, with such anguish, at times, he was close to him and was very attentive that he not fall, that all was well. Then, Pope Benedict arrived: until then, he had been number two, but we can say that in 2005, Pope Benedict named him number one, and I believe - but I may be mistaken - and I think that those were the eight most lenient years?, more simple?, because I think that Pope Benedict was more easy, more organized, not stressed for a moment about protocol, he did everything that Alberto told him, more docile, I would say it that way.
And then ... a hurricane arrived, and I believe that Alberto had to have another suit made, and say: O God, I think that this one too has a hard head. And in any case, I think that you have come back to having a beautiful relationship. We have had many trips together, many of them, with John Paul II, with Benedict and with you, made to measure for each of you because in the end - as you have said - every Pope is a man: he has his likes, his own rhythms, his own priorities and I believe that he has managed to understand each of you in the best way and always with gentleness, calm, education and a truly extraordinary efficiency. So it really makes me sad to know that you will not be there for the next trip.
Father Lombardi
Ok, do you want to explain the gifts that you have for Alberto?
Phil Pullella jokingly presented him with the gift of a keychain in the form of an airplane and an Alitalia model aircraft.
Cindy Wooden
Thank you, Holiness. We have used a few of Ebu's photography, by Giancarlo Giuliani, from the Associated Press and from l'Osservatore Romano and from Paul Haring ... A bit, if I might say that there was a bit of photobombing in certain historical moments: there is a Pope, a president - Albert. Let us hope that you will like it.
Doctor Gasbarri
May I, Holy Fahter?
Pope Francis
Just one word: I too repeat what I said at the beginning: thank you very much! You have given me good advice. Alone, you have a defect: you don't know how to calculate kilometres too well! ...
Doctor Gasbari
Thank you, Holy Father, thank you to all my colleagues. I am emotional in this moment. Naturally, I thank Pope Francis for his trust and for his patience. I will recount a little anecdote. In November, we were in Africa, in Bangui, and the Holy Father was supposed to meet with the bishops, and I saw that he was going to the chapel where there were no bishops. I said: But, Holy Father, you are supposed to meet the bishops ... And he responded: I am going to the chapel to pray to Our Lady, to ask her to give me enough patience to endure Mister Gasbarri. There you have it (laugh). Now, I have been freed of one of my prayer intentions ... (laugh). Thank you very much, Holy Father; thank you all. Naturally, my thoughts of gratitude are of Pope Benedict with whom I still have a good relationship and devotion, and naturally to Saint John Paul II, to whom I devoted 27 years, the best of my life - I was young then! - and I am also very fond of him. The final thank you is addressed to Cardinal Tucci, who I still call my father, because for me he has always been a father.
Father Lombardi
And now, they tell me that we are ready for the cake, that should always be part of such a beautiful occasion. There it is.
Pope Francis
Enjoy the trip. Thank you very much for your work and please pray for me. You know that I am at your service. And play with your children!
Transcription of the Press Conference
en route from Juárez city to Rome
Father Lombardi
Holy Father, thank you for being here, as you do at the end of every voyage, for a summary conversation, a great glance at the trip that has just been completed, and your availability to respond to many questions from our international community. As usual, we have asked the various language groups to organize themselves in order to present a few questions, but of course let us begin with our Mexican colleagues. So, we ask you to respond in Spanish to the first two, and then afterwards in Italian, so that others of our colleagues can better understand.
So, the first person who will ask a question is Maria Eugenia Jimenez Calíz from Milenio, which is an important Mexican journal.
Maria Eugenia Jimenez Calíz
Milenio
Holy Father, there are thousands of missing persons in Mexico, but the case of the Ayotzinapa 43 is emblematic. I want to ask you why you did not meet with their families, and also a message for the family members of the thousands of missing persons ...
Pope Francis
Truly, if you read my messages, you will find continual references to assassinations, deaths, and lives taken by all these bands of drug traffickers, and by traffickers of human beings. I spoke about these problems as one of the wounds from which Mexico suffers. There have been some attempts to receive people, and there were many groups, even opposed to each other, with internal battles. Therefore I preferred to say that at the Mass I would have seen everyone, in the Mass at Juárez if they preferred, or at another, but I was open to this eventuality. It was practically impossible to receive all the groups who, on the other hand, were opposed to each other. It is a difficult situation to understand clearly, for me, as a foreigner. But I believe that Mexican society is a victim of this: of crimes, of this tendency to make people disappear, to discard them. I spoke about this in my speeches where I could. It is a great source of pain that I bear, as this people does not deserve to experience a tragedy like this.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. And now, we move on to Javier Solorzano Zinser from Canal Once.
Javier Solorzano Zinser
Canal Once
Thank you very much. Pope Francis, thank you very much. The theme of pedophilia, as you know, has very dangerous roots in Mexico, very painful. The case of Father Maciel has left deep scars, above all in the victims. The victims continue to feel that they are not protected by the Church; many of them continue to be people of faith, and some of them have become priests. I want to know what you think about this theme, if at some time you thought about meeting the victims and, in general, the idea of priests, when they are discovered to be in a case of this nature, most often they are assigned to different parishes and nothing more. How do you see all of this? ... and thank you very much.
Pope Francis
Ok, let us begin with the second question. A bishop who moves a priest to a different parish if he detects a case of pedophilia is without conscience and the best thing for him to do would be to resign. Secondly, I would like to return to the Maciel case. Here I would like to render homage to a man who battled in a moment in which he did not have the strength to impose himself, to the point of being able to do so: Cardinal Ratzinger, a man who had all the documentation. When he was Prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, he had all the documentation in his hands; he carried out investigations … but was not able continue until the end. But if you remember, ten days before Saint John Paul II died, that Good Friday Via Crucis, he said to all the Church that it was necessary to clean up all the filth in the Church. In the Mass Pro Eligendo Pontifice – he was no fool, he knew he was a candidate – he did not try to conceal his position, he said exactly the same thing. That is, he was the courageous man who greatly helped to open this door. Thirdly, we are working hard. Along with the Cardinal Secretary of State, in discussion, and also with the group of nine cardinal counsellors, I decided to appoint a third adjunct secretariat to the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, which is occupied exclusively with these cases, because the Congregation is unable to manage them with all it has to do, and therefore this secretariat knows how to manage this. Furthermore, the Court of Appeal was convened, presided over by Monsignor Scicluna, which is dealing with the cases of second instance, on appeal … Another thing that is working very well is the Commission for the Protection of Minors … With regard to Maciel, returning to the Congregation, action has been taken and now the Congregation, the governance of the Congregation is semi-commissioned, or rather the Superior General is elected by the Council, by the General Chapter, but the Vicar is chosen by the Pope. Two General Counsellors are elected by the General Chapter and the other two are chosen by the Pope, so that we are able to help them to review old accounts.
Father Lombardi
Thank you.
Pope Francis
If any of you did not understand, please ask one of the Spanish-speaking reporters to explain the things that I have said.
Father Lombardi
So, now we pass the microphone to Phil Pullella from Reuters, who we all know very well.
Phil Pullella
Reuters
Good evening, Holiness, Today, you spoke very eloquently about the problems of immigrants. On the other side of the border, however, there is a rather tough electoral campaign in progress. One of the candidates to the White House, the Republican Donald Trump, recently said in an interview that His Holiness is a man of politics or indeed even a pawn in the hands of the Mexican government to favour a policy of immigration. He has declared that, if elected, he intends to construct a 2,500 kilometre wall along the border between Mexico and the United States, and to deport eleven million illegal immigrants, thus separating families, and so on. I would like to ask, first of all, what you think of these accusations and whether an American Catholic can vote for such a person.
Pope Francis
I thank God that he has said I am a politician, since Aristotle defined the human being as an animal politicus: at least I am a human being! And that I am a pawn … perhaps, I do not know. I will leave that to your judgement, to the people. A person who thinks only of building walls, wherever that may be, and not bridges, is not Christian. This is not in the Gospel. With regard to what I would advise, to vote or not to vote: I would not like to become involved. I would say only that this man is not Christian. It is necessary to see if he has said these things, and for this reason I would give the benefit of the doubt.
Father Lombardi
Thank you very much. Now, we give the microphone to Jean-Louis de la Vaissière from France Presse, representing the French group.
Jean-Louis de la Vaissière
France Presse
The encounter with the Russian patriarch Kirill and the signing of the Joint Declaration was acclaimed throughout the world as an historic step. But now, already, in Ukraine the Greek Catholics feel betrayed and speak about a political document, supporting Russian policy. On the ground, the war of words has broken out again. Do you think that you will continue in Moscow? Did you invite the Patriarch ... or do you intend to go to Crete to greet the pan-orthodox Council in the Spring?
Pope Francis
Let us begin at the end. I will be present, spiritually and with a message. I would like to go, to greet the pan-orthodox Council: they are brothers, but I have to respect them. I know that they would like to invite Catholic observers, and this is a good bridge. Behind the observers, I will be there, praying with the best of wishes that the Orthodox may continue to progress, to move forward, because they are brothers and their bishops are bishops like us. And Kirill, my brother. We hugged one another, embraced, and then we spoke for an hour ...
Father Lombardi
... two hours!
Pope Francis
... two hours! Two hours during which we spoke as brothers, sincerely, and no one knows the things we spoke about, only what was said at the end, publicly, regarding the things we discussed together. Third: that article, the declaration in Ukraine. When I read that, I was a bit preoccupied, because it was Svjatoslav Ševčuk who had said that the Ukrainian people, or some Ukrainians, or many Ukrainians feel deeply disappointed and betrayed. First of all, I know Svjatoslav well: we worked together for four years in Buenos Aires. When he was elected - at 42 years of age, a good man! - he was elected Major Archbishop and returned to Buenos Aires to take his things. He came to me and presented me with an icon - small, like this - of the Madonna of Tendernes and he said: This has accompanied me all my life: I want to leave it with you, who have accompanied me during these four years. This was one of the little things that I had sent to me from Buenos Aires and I still have it on my desk. He is a man for whom I have respect and who I know, we speak to each other as friends, and this is why the article seemed a bit strange. I remembered one thing that I have said to you: to understand a piece of news, a declaration, we need to search out the hermeneutic (the proper interpretation) behind it. When did he say this? It was said in a declaration on February 14, a Sunday, last Sunday. An interview that he granted to his father ... I don't remember, a Ukrainian priest; in Ukraine, granted and published. That news - the interview is two pages and a bit long, more or less - that news is in the third-to-last paragraph, so small. I read the interview, and I would say this: Ševčuk - this is the dogmatic part - declares himself a son of the Church, in communion with the Bishop of rome, with the Church; he speaks of the Pope, of his closeness to the Pope, and about himself, about his faith, and also about the faith of the Orthodox people. There is no difficulty with his dogmatics, they are orthodox in the good sense of the word, that is to say, Catholic doctrine. Then, as in every interview - this one for example - everyone has the right to say his piece, and this was not done with respect to that meeting, because in the meeting, they said: It's a good thing and we should carry on. In this second chapter, the personal ideas that a person has. For example, what I have said about the bishops who move pedophile priests, that the best we can do is to retire them, that's one thing ... it is not dogmatic, but it is something that I think. In this way, he has his proper ideas which are open to dialogue, and he has the right to have them. Everything that he says is in the document: that is the problem. Concerning the facts of the meeting, he says: This is the Lord, the Spirit who continues, the embrace ...: everything is good. The Document? It is a document open to discussion. And there is something else to add: that Ukraine is in a time of war, of suffering, with many interpretations. I have named the Ukrainian people and asked for prayers and support on many occasions during the Angelus as well as during the Wednesday audiences. But the historical fact of a war ... everyone has his own ideas: how is the war going? who started it? how? what wasn't done? ... It is evident that this is a historic problem, but also an existential problem in that country, and it speaks of suffering. In this context, I insert this paragraph, and you can understand what the faithful are saying ... Svjatoslav says: Many of the faithful have called me or written to say that they are deeply disillusioned and betrayed by Rome. It is understandable that people in such a situation would feel that way. The Document is questionable on the question of Ukraine, but it says that the war would be over and that we would be making agreements; I too had personally hoped that the Minsk Accords would be observed, and not pushed aside by another that was penned by hand. The Church of Rome, the Pope has always said: Seek peace. I have received both Presidents. And for this reason, when he says that he felt this from his people, I understand, I understand. But this is not the news. The news is all. If you read the entire interview, you will see that there are some dogmatic things, there is a desire for unity, for continuing along the way, for ecumenism - he is an ecumenical man ... And there are a few opinions ... He wrote to me, when he learned about the trip, about the meeting, but as a brother, giving his opinions as a brother ... I do not mind the document; I do not mind it in the sense that we must respect the things that others have the liberty to think and in such difficult situations. And from Rome ... Now, the Nuncio is on the frontier of combat, helping the soldiers, the wounded; the Church of Rome has sent a lot of help, a lot of help. We are still seeking peace, agreements; respecting the Minsk Accord ... This is the overview. But there is no need to be intimidated by the phrase: this is a lesson - that the news should be interpreted with a hermeneutic of the whole, not of only part of the story.
Jean-Louis de la Vaissière
Did Patriarch Kirill invite you to Moscow, to go there some day?
Pope Francis
Patriarch Kirill ... I would love that ... because if I say one thing, I will have to say another, and another and another. I would prefer that what we spoke about, alone, remains only what we have said in public. This is a given. And if I say this, I will have to say something else ... no! What I said in public, what he said in public, that is what I can say about our private discussion. Otherwise, it wouldn't be private. But I can tell you: I came away from that meeting very happy. And he did too.
Father Lombardi
Thank you very much for this detailed response on such a fundamental theme. Now, we pass the microphone to Carlo Marroni, who represents the Italian group, and who was sent by Il Sole 24 Ore.
Carlo Marroni
Il Sole 24 Ore
Holy Father, My question concerns the family, a theme that you have spoken about during this voyage. In the Italian parliament, they are discussing the laws about civil unions, a theme that is leading to strong clashes in politics, but also to strong debates in society and among Catholics. In particular, I would like to know your thoughts about the theme of adoption in the case of civil unions, and concerning children's rights and children in general. Thank you.
Pope Francis
Firstly I do not know how things are in the Italian parliament. The Pope does not get involved in Italian politics. At the first meeting I had with the Italian bishops in May 2013, one of the three things I said was: with the Italian government you are on your own. The Pope is for everybody and he cannot get involved in the specific internal politics of a country. This is not the role of the Pope. What I think is what the Church thinks and has so often said – because this is not the first country to have this experience, there are so many – I think what the Church has always said about this.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. And now, now we pass the microphone to Paloma García Ovejero, from Cope, A Spaniard, as you know.
Paloma García Ovejero
Cope
Holy Father, for several weeks there has been great concern in many Latin American countries, and also in Europe, regarding the Zika virus. The greatest risk would be for pregnant women. Some authorities have proposed abortion, or avoiding pregnancy. With regard to avoiding pregnancy, on this issue, can the Church take into consideration the concept of the lesser of two evils?
Pope Francis
Abortion is not the lesser of two evils. It is a crime. A matter of letting one go in order to save the other. This is what the mafia does. It is a crime, an absolute evil. Concerning the lesser evil, avoiding the gravity of the case - we speak in terms of a conflict between the fifth and sixth commandments. Paul VI - a great man - in a difficult situation in Africa, permitted nuns to use contraceptives in cases of rape. Do not confuse the evil of avoiding pregnancy by itself, with abortion. Abortion is not a theological problem: it is a human problem, a medical problem. If one person is killed in order to save another - at best - or the best that can be achieved. It is contrary to the Hyppocratic Oath that all doctors must take. It is an evil in and of itself, but it is not a religious evil, in the beginning, no, it is a human evil. And evidently, since it is a human evil - like every case of killing - it is condemned. On the other hand, avoiding pregnancy is not an absolute evil. In certain cases, as in this one, or in the one I mentioned of Blessed Paul VI, it was clear. I also urge doctors to do their utmost to find vaccines against these two mosquitos who carry the disease: we must work toward this … Thank you.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. Now, then, let us call Ludwig Ring-Eifel to speak, who is from the German Catholic Information Agency Kna.
Ludwig Ring-Eifel
Kna
Holiness, in a few weeks' time, you will receive the Charlemagne Prize, one of the most prestigious awards in the European Community. Your predecessor, John Paul II also received this prize: he appreciated it very much. He also believed very strongly in European unity, which seems at the moment to be a bit in trouble, first with the crises in Europe and now with the refugee crises. Do you have a word for us, in this situation of crisis in Europe? Thank you.Pope Francis
First, about the Charlemagne Prize, I had the habit of not accepting prizes or honours, not out of humility, but because I do not like these things. It's good to have a bit of madness, but I don't like such things. But in this case, I would not say I was forced, but convinced by the holy and theological stubbornness of Cardinal Kasper who was chosen by Aachen to convince me! I accepted and said yes, but in the Vatican. And I offer it to Europe, as a co-decoration for Europe, a prize so that Europe may do as I said at Strasbourg; that it may no longer be grandmother Europe but mother Europe. Secondly, reading the news the other day about this crisis - I read very little, only one newspaper (I will not say the name in order to not cause any jealousy, but you know), fifteen minutes each day, and then I inform myself about the activities of the Secretariat of State - a word that pleased me, pleased me - I'm not sure which ones of you agree and which ones don't - is the re-foundation of the European Union. I thought of the great fathers, but today where is there a Schuman, an Adenauer, the great statesmen who after the war founded the European Union. I like this idea of the re-foundation of the European Union, maybe it can be done, because Europe – I do not say it is unique, but it has a strength, a culture, a history that cannot be lost, and we must do everything so that the European Union has the strength and also the inspiration to go forward. I don't know, but this is what I think.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. And so, now we go on to Anne Thompson, from NBC News - we are in America, above America: let us give her the microphone.
Anne Thompson
NBC News
Thank you, Father Lombardi. Matteo will help me ... Holy Father, You spoke a lot about families and about the Year of Mercy during this voyage. Some are wondering, how a Church that aims to be merciful can more easily pardon a killer than those who are divorced and remarried ...
Pope Francis
I like the question! On the family, two synods have spoken. The Pope has spoken on this all year in the Wednesday Catechisms. The question is true, you posed it very well. The post-Synod document which will be published - hopefully before Easter - in one of the chapters - because there are many of them, the document reviews everything the Synod has said about conflicts, wounded families and the pastoral care of wounded families. It is one of our concerns. Another is the preparation for marriage.
When you think about it, to become a priest, it takes eight years of study and preparation, and then, after a certain time, if you can't do it, ask for a dispensation and you can go, and everything is okay. Instead, to create a Sacrament that is for life, three or four meetings ... Preparation for marriage is very very important because I believe that this is something that the Church - in common pastoral ministry, at least in my country, in South America, the Church has not valued much. For example, it does not happen so much now, but some years ago in my homeland there was a habit, something called casamiento de apuro, a marriage in haste because of an unplanned pregnancy, to protect the honour of the family. There, the spouses were not free and often this type of marriage is null. As a bishop I forbade my priests to celebrate this type of marriage. … I would say, let the baby come, let them continue as fiancées, and when they feel like they can continue for the rest of their lives, then they could go ahead, but there is a shortage in preparation for Marriage. Another very interesting chapter is the education of children: children are also the victims of family problems, but these are problems that neither the groom nor the bride want: for example, the need for work. When the Pope has no free time to speak with his brothers, when a mother has no free time to speak with her children ... When I hear the confessions of a couple who have children, I ask: How many children do you have? Some of them are afraid, for they say: The priest asked me why I don't have more ... And I tell them: I will ask you a second question: do you play with your children?, and the majority of them - almost all of them - say: But, Father, I don't have time; I work all day. Children are the victims of social problems that wound the family. This is a problem ... I am glad to hear your question. And, a third interesting thing, in the meeting with families in Tuxtla - there was a re-married couple, a second union, integrated in the pastoral work of the Church; the key phrase used by the synod, which I’ll take up again, is to integrate wounded families, remarried couples and so on in the life of the Church. But the children who are in the middle must not be forgotten. They are the primary victims, both of these wounds, and of conditions of poverty, work, and so on.
Anne Thompson
NBC News
Does this mean that they can go to communion?
Pope Francis
This is one thing ... the point of arrival. Integration into the Church does not mean receiving communion; because I know re-married Catholic couples who go to church once a year, perhaps twice: But, I go to communion!, as though communion makes them worthy of praise. It is a work of integration ... all the doors are open. But we cannot say: from one moment to the next we can go to communion. This would be a wound also for the two of them, for the couple, because it would not allow them to proceed along the path of integration. These two people were happy! They used a very beautiful expression: We do not receive Eucharistic communion but we receive communion in visiting the hospitals, in this service or that one ... Their integration has remained there. If there is something else, the Lord will tell them, but ... it is a journey, a path ...
Anne Thompson
NBC News
Thank you.
Father Lombardi
Now then, let us give the floor to Antoine-Marie Izoard, then we will return to the French group; he is from I.Media, which is a French Catholic information agency.
Antoine-Marie Izoard
I.Media
Holiness, good evening. First, allow me to say how we vaticanistas are held a bit as hostages to the Holy Father's agenda, and cannot play with our own children ... Saturday, there is a Jubilee audience; Sunday, there is the Angelus; and from Monday to Friday we have to work. Then, a word of thanks to Alberto (Gasbarri) who, along with Father Lombardi, welcomed me to Radio Vaticana 20 years ago - we are family ...
Holiness, I have a question that is a bit daring: many media have evoked and made a lot of noise about the intense relationship between John Paul II and the American philosopher Anna Tymieniecka, who had - so to speak - a great affection for the Polish Pope. In your opinion, can a Pope have such an intimate relationship with a woman? And then - if you would allow me: Do you have such an important relationship; do you have - or have you had - this type of experience?
Pope Francis
We knew this, this relationship of friendship, between John Paul II and this philosopher, when I was in Buenos Aires: one thing that we knew, even her books were known, and John Paul II was a man who questioned himself ... Then, I would say that a man who does not know how to have a good relationship with a woman - I'm not speaking about a misogynist: they are sick - is a man who is missing something. And I, also through my own personal experience, when I ask for counsel, I ask one of my collaborators, I ask a friend, a man, but I also like to hear advice from women; they have such richness to offer! They look at things from another angle. I like to say that women are the ones who build life, within their wombs, and they have - but this is a comparison that I'm making - they have a charism of providing things with which we can build. A friendship with a woman is not a sin; it is a friendship. An amorous relationship with a woman who is not your wife, this is a sin. The Pope is a man, the Pope also needs to hear the thoughts of a woman. The Pope also has a heart that can have healthy love, healthy love with a woman. There are many holy friends: Francis and Clare, Teresa and John of the Cross ... but women are still a bit ... not well considered, not totally ... We have not developed a good understanding of the good that a woman can do for the life of a priest and of the Church, in the sense of providing counsel, help and healthy friendship. Thank you.
Father Lombardi
Thank you very much. Now, we hear from Franca Giansoldati, from Il Messaggero, for the Italian group.
Franca Giansoldati
Il Messaggero
I return to the subject of law that will be voted upon in the Italian Parliament: it is a law that in some way pertains also to other States, because other States have laws regarding unions between persons of the same sex. There is a document published by the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith which dates back to 2003, that dedicates ample attention to this matter, and what's more, it dedicates a chapter to behaviour that must guide Catholic parliamentarians in Parliament in the light of these laws, and it is said expressly that Christian parliamentarians should not vote for these laws. Since there is much confusion about this, I have desired to ask first of all whether this document from 2003 still has any value, and effectively, what kind of behaviour a Catholic parliamentarian should adopt?
And then, one thing: after Moscow and Cairo: is there another thaw that can be perceived on the horizon? That is to say, I refer to the audience that you desired with the Sunni Pope, let's call him the Imam of Al-Azhar?
Pope Francis
On this point, Monsignor Ayuso went to Cairo last week, to meet with the Assistant to the Grand Imam and also to greet the Imam. Monsignor Ayuso is the Secretary of the Pontifical Council for Inter-religious Dialogue, which is presided over by Cardinal Tauran. I want to meet the Imam; I know that he would like this too, and we are trying to find the right way, working through Cardinal Tauran, because that is the right channel, but it will happen.
Concerning the first argument: I do not have a good recollection of that 2003 document from the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, but a Catholic who is in parliament should vote according to his own well-informed conscience: this is all that I will say. I believe that it is sufficient. I say well informed, because it is not the conscience of what appears to me. I remember that when a vote concerning marriage for persons of the same sex was voted on in Buenos Aires, the votes were tied and in the end one said to the other: Are you really seeing clearly? - No - Me neither - Let's go to dinner - If we leave there won't be a quorum. And the other person said: Well if we reach quorum, lets give our votes to Kirchner!, and the other one said: I would prefer to give them to Kirchner and not to Bergoglio! ... and so it went. This is not a well-formed conscience! Concerning persons of the same sex, I repeat what I said during the return trip from Rio de Janeiro, what is written in the Catechism of the Catholic Church.
Father Lombardi
Thank you. So, now we have the last question in the pre-arranged series with Javier Martinez Brocal from Rome Reports.
Javier Martínez Brocal
Rome Reports
Holy Father, thank you very much for this trip to Mexico: it was an honour to accompany you and to see all that we have seen. We have not yet returned to Rome and already we are thinking about future trips, about re-packing our bags. Holy Father, when will you go to Argentina, where people have been waiting for you for quite some time? And then, when will you return to Latin America or to China? ... And, a bit of a joke: During this voyage, you have spoken many times about dreams. What are your dreams? And above all, what are your nightmares?
Pope Francis
China ... to go there: I would like that very much!
I want to say one thing, something that is true about the Mexican people. They are a rich people, they have so much wealth, they are a people of surprises ... They have a culture, an ancient culture ... Do you know that today, in Mexico there are 65 languages spoken, including the indigenous languages? 65! They are a people of great faith, who have also suffered religious persecution; there are martyrs - we will soon canonize two or three of them - This is a people ... I can't explain it. They are a people who are hard to describe in simple terms because the word people is not a logical category, it is a mystical category. The Mexican people cannot explain it, this wealth, this history, this joy, this capacity to celebrate, and this tragedies about which you have asked. I cannot say anything else, except for this unity, and also that this people has managed not to fail, to not end up with many wars, and things that happen now ... There, in Juárez City, there was a period of 12 hours of peace during my visit: afterward, they will continue to fight among each other, the trafficking ... A people who still has this vitality, can only be explained by Guadalupe. I invite you to seriously study the Guadalupe effect. The Madonna is there. I find no other possible explanation. It would be good if you, as journalists ... There are some good books that explain, also explain the painting, how it came to be, what it means ... In this way, you will be able to understand such great people, so beautiful.
Father Lombardi
Thank you, Holiness. Now, we have finished the series of planned questions. Now we will hear from Mme Pigozzi, who wanted to tell you something, I don't really know what: now we give her the microphone; and then after that, we have another small coda that concerns a circumstance that everyone knows.
Caroline Pigozzi
Paris Match
Yes, Holy Father, good evening. Two things. I want to know what you asked of the Virgin of Guadalupe, because you spent a lot of time in the church praying to the Virgin of Guadalupe. Then, the second thing: whether you dream in Italian or in Spanish?
Pope Francis
Yes, I can tell you that I dream in esperanto ... I don't know how to respond to this, really. Sometimes yes, I remember, some dreams in other languages, but do I dream in a language, no; with images, yes. My psychology is like that. With words, I dream rarely. And your first question was?
Caroline Pigozzi
The first question, Holiness, You spent a lot of time praying with the Madonna ...
Pope Francis
I prayed for the world, for peace ... Many things ... Poor her, she ended up with her head like this ... I asked for forgiveness, I asked that the Church might grow healthily, I prayed for the Mexican people ... and also something that I really prayed for was that the priests would be true priests, and the sisters true sisters, and the bishops true bishops: according to the heart of the Lord. For this I prayed a lot. And then, the things that a son says to his mama are a bit secretive ... Thank you, Carolina.
Father Lombardi
Now, as you know, this will be the final voyage for Alberto Gasbarri, who is here, close by, and who many of you know very well, and to whom we are very grateful for the service he has offered during all these voyages. So, now also our colleagues want to say a word to Alberto and to present a word of gratitude. We have our dean who will speak ...
Valentina Alazraki
We will try to make a good report ... Truly, I like to joke a lot, you all know it. But, in this moment I won't risk it because I am very saddened by the thought that Alberto will not be with us on the next trip, and that is no joke because he is one of those people who is impossible to think of without seeing him right beside you over the next few months. The first time that I met him, I saw him, it was 37 years ago, he had more hair, he was a bit thinner but he was exactly the same person. I used to call him the lord of the heavens; this is the expression that comes to me. He is a gentleman from another time, not only because of his double-breasted suit and his impeccable clothing, but we have experienced so many things. He has served - as we say in the Church - three Popes; there have been many difficult moments, emergency landings, countries at war ... I have never seen him even raise an eyebrow, never a wasted word, never a nervous moment, he has never been rude to anyone. He is truly a gentleman. He is like a taylor: a great taylor who sews himself onto three different Popes as they have travelled, made to measure for three Popes. At the beginning with John Paul II, I think that it was when he began to work with Father Tucci, after Monsignor Marcinkus left, I think that Monsignor Marcinkus said to him: Look, this one is Polish; he has a hard head and you'll see all the colours. And I think that was how it was in the beginning. At the end of the pontificate, he was like a son: not only did he organize the trips but he was almost a man who every day had his physical limits and he had invented everything - a mobile throne, a mobile platform - and we saw him with such feelings, with such anguish, at times, he was close to him and was very attentive that he not fall, that all was well. Then, Pope Benedict arrived: until then, he had been number two, but we can say that in 2005, Pope Benedict named him number one, and I believe - but I may be mistaken - and I think that those were the eight most lenient years?, more simple?, because I think that Pope Benedict was more easy, more organized, not stressed for a moment about protocol, he did everything that Alberto told him, more docile, I would say it that way.
And then ... a hurricane arrived, and I believe that Alberto had to have another suit made, and say: O God, I think that this one too has a hard head. And in any case, I think that you have come back to having a beautiful relationship. We have had many trips together, many of them, with John Paul II, with Benedict and with you, made to measure for each of you because in the end - as you have said - every Pope is a man: he has his likes, his own rhythms, his own priorities and I believe that he has managed to understand each of you in the best way and always with gentleness, calm, education and a truly extraordinary efficiency. So it really makes me sad to know that you will not be there for the next trip.
Father Lombardi
Ok, do you want to explain the gifts that you have for Alberto?
Phil Pullella jokingly presented him with the gift of a keychain in the form of an airplane and an Alitalia model aircraft.
Cindy Wooden
Thank you, Holiness. We have used a few of Ebu's photography, by Giancarlo Giuliani, from the Associated Press and from l'Osservatore Romano and from Paul Haring ... A bit, if I might say that there was a bit of photobombing in certain historical moments: there is a Pope, a president - Albert. Let us hope that you will like it.
Doctor Gasbarri
May I, Holy Fahter?
Pope Francis
Just one word: I too repeat what I said at the beginning: thank you very much! You have given me good advice. Alone, you have a defect: you don't know how to calculate kilometres too well! ...
Doctor Gasbari
Thank you, Holy Father, thank you to all my colleagues. I am emotional in this moment. Naturally, I thank Pope Francis for his trust and for his patience. I will recount a little anecdote. In November, we were in Africa, in Bangui, and the Holy Father was supposed to meet with the bishops, and I saw that he was going to the chapel where there were no bishops. I said: But, Holy Father, you are supposed to meet the bishops ... And he responded: I am going to the chapel to pray to Our Lady, to ask her to give me enough patience to endure Mister Gasbarri. There you have it (laugh). Now, I have been freed of one of my prayer intentions ... (laugh). Thank you very much, Holy Father; thank you all. Naturally, my thoughts of gratitude are of Pope Benedict with whom I still have a good relationship and devotion, and naturally to Saint John Paul II, to whom I devoted 27 years, the best of my life - I was young then! - and I am also very fond of him. The final thank you is addressed to Cardinal Tucci, who I still call my father, because for me he has always been a father.
Father Lombardi
And now, they tell me that we are ready for the cake, that should always be part of such a beautiful occasion. There it is.
Pope Francis
Enjoy the trip. Thank you very much for your work and please pray for me. You know that I am at your service. And play with your children!
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