During the return flight from Brazil, one hour after
takeoff from Rio de Janeiro on Sunday evening, July 28, Pope Francis met with
the journalists who were on board the aircraft and held an extended Press
Conference. Here is an English-language translation of the interview which lasted 90 minutes and was conducted in Italian and Spanish.
Press
Conference aboard the return flight
from Rio de Janeiro to Rome
Father Lombardi: Dear
friends, we have the joy of spending some time on this return flight, with the
Holy Father, Pope Francis; he was kind enough to agree to spend some time with
us in order to review the trip and to respond with total freedom to your
questions. I hand the microphone over to
him for a little bit of an introduction, and then afterward we will begin with
the list of those who signed up to speak. We will take questions from the various
nationalities and language groups. So,
to you, Your Holiness, a word of introduction.
Pope Francis:
Good evening, and thank you very much. I
am very pleased. This was a beautiful
trip, spiritually, it was good for me. I
am tired enough, but my heart is joyful, and I am well: this was spiritually
good for me. It was good to find these
people, because the Lord works in every one of us, He works in our hearts, and
the good thing about God is that we can always receive so many beautiful things
from others. And this is good for
me. This is a first review. I would also say that goodness, the heart of the
Brazilian people is very large, it’s true: it is very large. They are such loveable people, people who
love a party, even in the midst of suffering , they always find a way to find
something that is good. And this is
good: they are a happy people, yet they have suffered so! The happiness of the Brazilians is
contagious! And they have such large
hearts, this people. I would say this of
the organizers, both our own people and the Brazilians; but I would say that at
some points, I felt as though I was standing in front of a computer, an
incarnate computer … truly! It was all
timed, no? But it was nice. Then, we had some problems with the security
plans: security problems here, security problems there; there were no reports
of violence in all of Rio de Janeiro during these days, and everything was
spontaneous. With minimal security, I
could be with the people, embrace them, greet them, without any armoured cars …
it was the security of trusting in people.
It is true that there is always the danger of meeting a crazy person …
yes, that there might be a sick person who might do something, but we also have
the Lord with us! Making space for a
relationship between a bishop and his people is also a bit crazy, but I prefer
this kind of craziness: outside, running the risk of meeting another crazy
person. I prefer this craziness:
outside. Closeness to one another is good
for everyone.
The organization of World Youth Day, not the specifics,
but in general: the artistic parts, the religious parts, the catechetical
parts, the liturgical parts … were all beautiful! They have an ability to express themselves in
art. Yesterday, for example, they did
something beautiful, beautiful! Then,
Aparecida: Aparecida for me is a strong religious experience. I remember the Fifth Conference. I was there praying, praying. I wanted to go there alone, a bit of
narcissism but there was an impressive crowd!
It was not possible, I knew it before we arrived. And we prayed. I don’t know … one thing … but also on your
part. Your work was , I am told – I
didn`t read the newspapers during these days, there wasn`t any time, I didn`t
see any television, nothing -, but I am told that you did very good work, very
good, very good! Thank you, thank you
for your assistance, thank you for having done this. And then the number, the number of young
people. Today – I can`t believe it – but
today the Governor was saying that there were three million. I can’t believe it. But on the other hand – this is true! – I
don’t know if you, any of you were at the altar, at the altar, at the end, the
whole beach was full, up to the bend; more than four kilometers. So many young people! Cardinal Tempesta told me that there were 178
countries represented, 178! Even the
Vice-President told me this number: that’s for sure. It’s important! Strong!
Father Lombardi: Thank
you. So, now we give the word first to
Juan de Lara, who is from Efe, a Spaniard, and this is his last trip with us,
so we are happy to give him this opportunity.
Juan de Lara:
(in Spanish) Your Holiness, Good evening.
On behalf of all my colleagues, I wish to thank you for these days which
we have enjoyed in Rio de Janeiro, for the work you have done, and for all the
energy you have put into it. And also,
on behalf of all the Spanish-speaking journalists, I would like to thank you
for your prayers and for your concern for all the victims of the train
derailment in Santiago de Compostela.
Thank you very much. This first
question doesn’t have much to do with this voyage, but we welcome the
opportunity that it affords us, and I want to ask you: Your Holiness, in these
first four months of your Pontificate we have seen that you have created
various Commissions aimed at reforming the Curia. I wanted to ask you: What kind of reforms do
you have in mind? Are you considering
the possibility of supressing the IOR?
Do you consider it the Vatican Bank?
Thank you.
Pope Francis: The
steps that I have taken in these past four months have been motivated by two
realities: as far as the content of what had to be done, everything comes from
the General Congregations of the Cardinals (the meetings held prior to the
Conclave). These were things we had
asked of the Cardinal who would become Pope; I remember that I asked many
things, thinking that it would be another.
We asked him to do this, for example the Commission of eight Cardinals
know that it is important to have outsider consulters, not the Consulters we
already have in place, but outsiders.
This is true at all times – here I am speaking abstractly, thinking, but
I do so for the sake of explanation – in the course of the maturation of the
relationship between collegiality and primacy.
Therefore, these eight Cardinals foster collegiality, while helping the
various Episcopal Conferences around the world to communicate with the same
ecclesial government. There are many
proposals which were made, and which have not yet been put into practice, such
as the reform of the Secretariat of the Synod; in questions of methodology,
such as the Post-Synodal Commission, which should be a permanent and on-going
consultation; consistories of Cardinals, with not so many formal issues such as
canonization, and also other issues …
Well, the scope of the content comes from there.
The second reality provides us with an opportunity. I must confess that I don’t think much about
the costs involved. In the first month
of my Pontificate, the task was to organize the Commission of eight Cardinals,
the first point. The matters of
economics I thought we would deal with next year, because I did not consider it
to be the most important thing that we need to deal with. But the agenda has
changed because of circumstances that you know already, since they are in the
public domain; certain problems became apparent, and needed to be dealt
with. First was the problem of the IOR:
questions about how to approach it, how to define it, how to reformulate it,
how to clean up the things that need to be cleaned up, and here we involve the
first Commission of reference, that is it’s name. You know the chirograph, what matters
motivated it, the things it involves. We
had the meeting of the Commission of 15 Cardinals who deal with the economic
aspects of the Holy See. They come from
all corners of the world, and there, during that meeting, we realized the
importance of forming a single Commission of reference for the entire question
of economics within the Holy See. That
is, the matters of economics must be tackled independently of the agenda, but
these things happen when someone gets into office and governs on one hand, but
throws a ball with the other hand, and this should be controlled, should it
not? Life is like that, but that’s the beauty of life. I’m repeating the question that was posed to
me about the IOR, sorry, I was speaking in Catalan. Sorry, the response came to me in Catalan.
In response to the question that was posed about the IOR,
I don’t know how the IOR will end up; some say that perhaps it would be better
if it were a bank; others that it is an assistance fund, others that it should
be closed. But, if we listen to these
voices, I don’t know. I trust the work
of the persons in the IOR, that they are working on it, and also those of the
Commission. The President of the IOR
remains, the same as he was before; however the Director and the Vice-director
tendered their resignations. But this, I
don’t know how it will all end, and this too is good, because it will be
discovered, we are searching; we are human beings, in all this; we must find
the best way. The characteristics of the
IOR – whether it is a bank or an assistance fund, whatever it is – there must be
transparency and honesty. This is the
way it must be. Thank you.
Father Lombardi:
Thank you very much, Your Holiness. Now
we pass on to one of the representatives of the Italian group, and we have one
who you know well: Andrea Tornielli who will ask a question on behalf of the
Italian group.
Andrea Tornielli: Holy Father, I have a question that is a bit
indiscrete: the photograph of our departure from Rome made its way around the
world – the one with you climbing the stairs of the aircraft, carrying the
black hand bag, and articles from all parts of the world commented on this
novelty, yes, of the Pope climbing the stairs … it shouldn’t have been like
that, the Pope climbing the stairs with his baggage in hand. There have been hypotheses about what was in
that black bag. So, my questions are:
one, why did you carry that black bag and not leave it for one of your
collaborators to carry; and two, if I may ask, what was in the bag? Thank you.
Pope Francis: It wasn’t the keys to the atomic bomb. I
carried it because I have always done the same: when I travel, I carry it. And inside, what was inside? A razor, my breviary, the agenda, a book for
me to read – I brought one about Saint Teresa, to whom I am devoted. I have always carried that bag when I travel:
it’s normal. We have to be normal … I
don’t know … it’s a bit strange for me, what you are saying, that the photo
appeared all over the world. We must
become accustomed to being normal - the normality of life. I don’t know Andrea, if I have answered your
question …
Father Lombardi:
Now, we give the microphone to one of the Portuguese, Aura Miguel, from Radio
Renascença.
Aura Miguel: Your Holiness, I want to know why you ask
so insistently that we pray for you?
It’s not normal, habitual, to hear a Pope asking us so many times to
pray for him …
Pope Francis: I have always asked for this. When I was a priest, I asked for it, but not
so frequently; I began to ask for prayer more regularly when I was named a
bishop, because I feel that if the Lord doesn’t help us with the work of
helping the People of God, of going forward, we cannot do it … I truly feel
that I have so many limits, so many problems, even sins – you know ! – and so I
must ask for prayer. But it comes from inside! I even ask the Madonna to pray to the Lord
for me. It’s a habit, but it’s a sincere
habit, and also a necessary habit to help me with my work. I feel that I must ask … I don’t know, that’s
how it is.
Father Lombardi: Now, we pass on to the English-speaking
group, and I give the microphone to our colleague Pullella from Reuters
who is here in front.
Philip Pullella: Your Holiness, thank you for being so
accommodating, in the name of all the English-speaking journalists. Lara’s
colleague has already asked the question that we wanted to pose, but perhaps we
can continue along the same line: in your research involved in making these
changes, I remember that you once said to a group of Latin Americans that there
are so many saints working in the Vatican, but also others that are not so saintly,
no? Have you discovered any resistance
to your desire to make these changes in the Vatican? Has anyone resisted? You live a very austere life, you have chosen
to live at Santa Martha … Is it your wish that your collaborators, and
even the Cardinals should follow your example and live in community, or is this
just something personal, for yourself?
Pope Francis: The changes … these changes too come from
two motivating factors: that which we Cardinals had asked for, and from my own
personality. You were speaking about me
choosing to live at Santa Martha, but I could not live alone in the Palace, and
it is not luxurious. The Papal apartment
is not so luxurious! It’s big, it’s
great, but it’s not luxurious, and I can’t live alone or with a small group of
people. I need people, I need to be with
people, to speak with people … That’s why when the children from the Jesuit
schools asked me: Why you? Because of austerity, or poverty? No, it was
because of psychological reasons, simply because psychologically I can’t. Everyone has to live his life, in his own
way. The Cardinals who work in the Curia
don’t live in luxurious and sumptuous places: they live in small apartments,
which are austere; they are austere. The
ones I know, the apartments that APSA gives to the Cardinals. Then, it seems that there is something else
that I want to add. We all should live
as the Lord asks us to live. Austerity –
austerity in general – it seems to me that this is necessary for all of us who
work in the service of the Church. There
are so many degrees of austerity … everyone needs to find his or her way. Compared to the saints, and it’s true that
there are saints: cardinals, priests, bishops, sisters, laity; people who pray,
people who work so hard, and who work with the poor, some even in secret. I know of some people who are always
concerned about feeding the poor, or who, when they have some free time, go to
one church or another to do some kind of ministry … they are priests. There are saints in the Curia, and there are
also some who are not so saintly; these are the ones who make the most
noise. You know that a tree makes more
noise in a forest when it falls than when it grows, and this pains me, when
these things happen. There are a few who
cause scandal, a few. We have this
Monsignor who is in jail. I believe he’s
still going to jail, not because he resembled Blessed Imelda, not exactly, he
wasn’t Blessed. There are scandals that
cause pain. One more thing - I have
never said this, but I haven’t really noticed – I believe that the Curia is a
bit smaller than it once was, made up of old curial clerics … the profile of an
old and faithful curia that did its work.
We need these people. I believe
there are some, but not as many as there once were. The portrait of an old curia: I would put it
this way. We don’t need this.
Am I finding
resistance? Well, if there is
resistance, I haven’t seen it yet. It’s
true that I haven’t done many things, but if I might say, I have found help,
and I have found loyal people. For
example, I’m happy when someone says to me: I don’t agree, and I have
encountered this. But I don’t
understand, I don’t agree. I say, you do
it. This is a true collaborator, and
this I have discovered in the Curia, and this is good. But when there is
someone who says: How beautiful, how beautiful, how beautiful!, and then
says the opposite to others, this I haven’t experienced. Perhaps there are some cases, but I haven’t
noticed any. Resistance: in the past
four months, I haven’t encountered too much …
Father Lombardi: So
now, we pass the microphone to a Brazilian; I think it is only right. We have Patricia Zorzan, and close by there
is also Izoard so we can also hear from the French.
Patricia Zorzan: I’m speaking in the name of the Brazilians. Society has changed, young people have
changed, and in Brazil, we see many youth.
You didn’t speak about abortion, about marriage of persons of the same
sex. In Brazil, there was a law approved
which amplifies the rights for abortions, and which permits the marriage of
persons of the same sex. Why did you not
speak about these subjects?
Pope Francis: The Church has already perfectly expressed
her views on these matters. It was not
necessary for me to return to these subjects, just as I did not speak either
about fraud, about falsehood or about other things on which the Church already
has clearly defined doctrine.
Patricia Zorzan: But it is a subject that interests many
young people.
Pope Francis: Yes, but it was not necessary for me to
speak about them, rather about the positive things that open the way for the
young. Is this not true? Besides, young
people know exactly what the position of the Church is!
Patricia Zorzan: What is Your Holiness’ position? We can talk about that.
Pope Francis: My position is that of the Church. I am a son of the Church.
Father Lombardi: Now, let us return to the Spanish group,
to Dario Menor Torres … oh, sorry, Izoard, who I had already called forward, so
we have one from the French group and then Dario Menor.
Antoine-Marie Izoard: Good evening Your Holiness. In the name of all the French-speaking
colleagues on board (we are 9 on the flight).
For a Pope who didn’t want to give interviews, we are truly grateful to
you. Since the 13th of March,
you have presented yourself as the Bishop of Rome, with great and strong
insistence. But we want to understand
the deeper sense of this insistence; is it based in an understanding of
collegiality, or in terms of ecumenism, or a sense of primus inter pares
(first among equals) in the Church?
Thank you.
Pope Francis: Yes, in this regard, you should not try to
infer more than I have said. The Pope is
a bishop, the Bishop of Rome, and because he is the Bishop of Rome, he is also
the Successor of Peter, the Vicar of Christ.
There are other titles, but the primary title is Bishop of Rome,
and from there, everything else follows.
To speak of, or to think that this title infers a sense of primus
inter pares would be incorrect. One
does not follow necessarily from the other.
Simply stated, the Pope’s primary title is Bishop of Rome, but
there are all the others as well. I
believe you said something about ecumenism: I believe that this understanding
favors (slightly) the process of ecumenism.
But only this …
Father Lombardi:
Now, Dario Menor from La Razón, from Spain.
Dario Menor Torres: A question about your feelings. A week ago, you commented about how a child
asked you how you felt, if it is possible for someone to imagine being Pope,
and could even desire to be Pope. You
said that you had to be crazy to want such a thing. After this first experience among a multitude
of people, how were these days in Rio, can you tell us how it feels to be Pope,
whether it is very difficult, whether it is easy, and if, in some way it has
increased your faith or on the contrary, whether you have had some doubt. Thank you.
Pope Francis: It
is a beautiful thing to do the work of a bishop, really beautiful. The problem arises when a person seeks to do
the work: this is not so nice, because it is not from and of the Lord. But when the Lord calls a priest to become a
bishop, this is beautiful. There is
always the danger that he might think of himself as a bit superior to others,
not like the others, a bit of a prince.
These are dangers, and sins. But
the work of a bishop is beautiful: it involves helping ones brothers to move
on, to go ahead. The bishop leading the
faithful, showing the way; the bishop among the faithful, to help build
communion; and the bishop backing the faithful, because the faithful may
at times already know the way. The
bishop should be like this. The question
asked was whether I liked it? I am happy
to be a bishop, I am happy. In Buenos
Aires, I was so happy, so happy! I was
happy, really. The Lord helped me in
this regard. But as a priest, I was also
happy, and as a bishop I was happy too.
In this sense, I must say that I like it!
Question from the crowd: And to be Pope?
Pope Francis: That too, that too. When the Lord puts you in that position, if
you do what the Lord wants, you are happy.
This is my sentiment, what I feel.
Father Lombardi: And now, another person from among the
Italians: Salvatore Mazza from Avvenire.
Salvatore Mazza: I can’t even get up. I’m sorry.
I can’t even stand up because of all the wires that I have under my
feet. We have seen you full of energy in
these days, even on late nights; now we see you on the plane, dancing, that you
are standing quietly on your feet, without even a moment’s hesitation. We want to ask you, is there much talk of
upcoming trips. Is there talk of Asia,
or Jerusalem or Argentina? Do you
already have a calendar that is more or less full for the coming year, or is it
still to be determined?
Pope Francis: Defined – defined there is nothing, but I
can tell you something about what is being considered. Defined – sorry – September 22nd
in Cagliari, then on October 4 in Assisi.
In mind, within Italy, I would like to visit my family one day; go by
plane in the morning and come back with another, because they, poor things,
they call me and we have a good relationship, but only someday. Outside of Italy, Patriarch Bartholomew I
would like a meeting to commemorate the 50th anniversary of
Athenagoras and Paul VI in Jerusalem.
Even the Israeli government has issued a special invitation to go to
Jerusalem. I believe that the government
of the Palestinian Authority has done the same.
This makes me think: would it be better to go or not to go? … Then in
Latin America I don’t believe that there will be a possibility of returning
because the first voyage of the Latin American Pope was to Latin America. Goodbye.
Now we must wait a bit. I think there
may be a possibility of going to Asia, but that is all up in the air. I have received an invitation to visit Sri
Lanka and also the Philippines. I must
go to Asia. Why? … because Pope Benedict
didn’t have time to go to Asia, and it is important. He went to Australia and then travelled in
Europe and America, but Asia … As for going to Argentina, right now I think you
can wait a while because all these travels have a certain priority. I would like to go to Constantinople on
September 30 to pay a visit to Bartholomew I but that isn’t possible, it isn’t
possible for my agenda. If we can, we
will meet in Jerusalem.
Question from the crowd: Fatima?
Pope Francis: Fatima, I also have an invitation to visit
Fatima. It’s true. I have an invitation to go to Fatima.
Question from the crowd: September 30 or November 30?
Pope Francis: November, November. Saint Andrew.
Father Lombardi: Good, now let’s go on to the United
States, and call upon Hada Messia from CNN to ask the question.
Hada Messia: Hello … you are doing better than I. No, no, no, I’m okay. My question is: when you met the Argentinian
youth, you joked with them, and you were a bit serious too. You told them that sometimes, you feel
trapped. We wanted to know what you
meant by that, exactly …
Pope Francis: Do you know how many times I have wanted
to walk the streets of Rome, because I like to do that. In Buenos Aires, I used to like going up and
down the streets. In this sense, I feel
a little bit caged, but I must say that the Vatican Gendarmerie are
good. They are good, good, good, and I
am grateful. Now, let me say a little
bit more. I believe … their duty is to
guarantee safety. I am caged in that
sense. I would love to walk down the
street, but I understand that it is not possible. I understand.
This is the sense in which I said it.
Because my habit was – in Buenos Aires we say – I was a callejero (street)
priest.
Father Lombardi:
Now, let us call upon another Brazilian: Marcio Campos, and I ask also
Guénois to come forward for the next turn, for the French.
Pope Francis: What time is it? They have to serve dinner. Are you hungry?
From the crowd: No,
no.
Marcio Campos: Your Holiness, Holy Father, I want to say
that when you feel nostalgic about Brazil, about the Brazilian people, when you
are happy, hug the flag that I gave you.
I also want to thank my colleagues from the daily Folha de São Paulo,
Estado, Globo and Veja papers, for allowing me to represent them in
this question. Holy Father, it’s
difficult to accompany a Pope, very difficult.
We are all tired, you look good and we are all tired. In Brazil, the Catholic Church has lost a
number of its faithful in recent years. The Charismatic Renewal Movement is one
possibility for keeping the faithful from attending the Pentecostal church or
other Protestant churches. Thank you
very much for your presence, and thank you very much for spending some time
with us.
Pope Francis: What you’ve said about the decline in the
attendance of the faithful is very true, it is true, it is true. There are statistics. We spoke with the Brazilian bishops about the
problem, in a meeting we had yesterday.
You were asking about the Charismatic Renewal Movement. I can tell you one thing. Over the years, in the late 1970s and early
1980s, I didn’t see them. Once, while
speaking about them, I said these words: They confuse a liturgical
celebration with a samba school. I
said this. I have since repented. Then, I knew better. It is also true that the Movement, through
the help of good counsellors has done good work. Now, I believe that this Movement does so
much good for the Church in general. In
Buenos Aires, I would often meet with them, and once a year, I celebrated a
Mass with all of them in the Cathedral.
I have always favoured them, ever since I too was converted, when I saw
the good that they were doing. Because
in this moment in the Church – and here I widen the answer a bit – I think that
the movements are needed. The movements
are a grace from the Spirit. But how can you limit a movement that is so
free? The Church too is free. The Holy Spirit does what he wants, then he
does the work of promoting harmony, but I believe that the movements are a
grace, those movements that have the spirit of the Church. This is why I believe that the Charismatic
Renewal Movement not only helps to prevent some people from joining the
Pentecostal confessions … no, it serves the Church herself! It renews us!
And everyone tests his or her own movement according to his or her own charism
– where the sprit leads.
Question from the crowd:
Pope Francis: I’m tired.
Father Lombardi: So, Guénois from Le Figaro for the
French-speaking group.
Jean-Marie Guénois: Holy Father, one question along with my
colleague from La Croix also: you said that a Church without women loses
fertility. What specific steps will be
necessary? … for example, a female diaconate, or a woman at the head of a
dicastery? This is a very small technical question: you said that you are
tired. Do you have any special accommodations
for the return flight? Thank you, Holy
Father.
Pope Francis: Let’s start with the last part. This aircraft doesn’t have special
accommodations. I’m sitting up front in
a nice seat, a common seat, an ordinary seat; it is all that I need. I had a letter written and a phone call made
in order to tell the organizers that I didn’t want any special considerations aboard
the aircraft: do you understand? Second,
women. A Church without women is like
the Apostles without Mary. The role of
women in the Church is not only that of maternity, the mommy of the family; it
is more important than that: women are the icons of the Virgin, of the Madonna;
the ones who help the Church to grow!
Consider for a moment, the Madonna is more important than the
Apostles! She is more important! The Church is feminine: it is Church, it is a
spouse, it is a mother. But women, in
the Church, should not only be … I don’t know how you say it in Italian … the
role of women in the Church should not only be that of mothers, labourers,
limited …. No! It is something else! The Popes … Paul VI wrote beautifully on the
subject of women, but I believe that we must go further in our explanations of
the role and charism of women. The
Church cannot be understood without women, without women who are active in the
Church, sharing their talents and gifts, helping the Church to move ahead. I’m thinking of an example that has nothing
to do with the Church, but is a historical example: in Latin America, in
Paraguay. For me, Paraguayan women are
the most beautiful in all of Latin America.
You are Paraguayan? I was there,
after the war, eight women for every man, and these women made a difficult
choice: the choice to have children to save: their country, their culture, the
faith and their language. In the Church,
we should think of women from this perspective: in terms of risky choices, but
truly as women. I need to explain this a
bit better. I believe that we have not
yet developed a deep theology of women, or of the Church. We only think in terms of what they can do …
they can do this, or they can do that.
They are the secretaries, they read the Readings at Mass, they are the
Presidents of Caritas … but they are more than that! We need to develop a profound theology of
women. This is what I think.
Father Lombardi: From the Spanish-speaking group, we now
have Pablo Ordaz from El Pais.
Pablo Ordaz: We would like to know about your working
relationship, or just a friendship and collaboration with Benedict XVI. Never before has there been such a
circumstance. Do you have frequent
contact with him? Does he help you with
your work? Thank you.
Pope Francis: I believe that the last time there were
two Popes, or three Popes, they weren’t talking to one another; they were
fighting to see who was the true Pope.
Eventually there were three of them, during the Great Schism. How should I describe it … what’s my
relationship with Benedict XVI like? I
love him very much. I have always loved
him. For me, he is a man of God, a
humble man, a man who prays. I was so happy when he was elected Pope. Also when he resigned, for me it was an
example of greatness, the sign of a great man.
Only a great man would do such a thing.
A man of God and a man of prayer.
Now he lives in the Vatican, and some say to me: but how can this
be? Two Popes in the Vatican! Doesn’t he hinder you? Doesn’t he cause people to question you? In answer to all these things that are said,
the response is no! I’ve found a
phrase to describe it: it’s like having my grandfather in the house, a wise
grandfather. When a grandfather lives in
the family home, he is venerated, he is loved, people listen to him. He is a prudent man! He doesn’t meddle. I’ve told him many times: Your Holiness, you receive, live your life,
come with us. He came for the
inauguration and the blessing of the statue of Saint Michael. See, that phrase says it all. For me, it’s like having a grandfather in the
house: my father. If I had a particular
difficulty or something I didn’t understand, I could call him on the phone: Tell me, I’m thinking of doing
this … And when I went to speak with him about the big problems, about the
Vatileaks, he told me everything with great simplicity … always serving. There is one thing that I’m not sure you know
about, I think you do, but I’m not sure: when we spoke, during his farewell
speech on February 28, he told us … Among you is the next Pope; I promise
him obedience. He is a great man, a
great man!
Father Lombardi: So, now we give the microphone to another
Brazilian, Anna Ferreira, and we invite also Gian Guido Vecchi on behalf of the
Italians.
Anna
Ferreira: Good evening Holy Father.
Thank you. I want to say thank
you very much: thank you for bringing such joy to Brazil, and thank you
also for responding to our questions. We
journalists love to ask questions. I
want to know, why you told the Brazilian bishops yesterday about the role of
women in our Church. I want to
understand better: what should this participation of us women in the life of
the Church look like? Also, if you
would, what do you think of the ordination of women? What should our position on this question be
in the Church?
Pope Francis: I want to explain a bit about what I said concerning the participation
of women in the Church: we can’t limit
this subject to the fact that they are secretaries in our parishes or the
President of Caritas, or catechists … No! There has to be more, profoundly more, even
mystically more, according to what I said about the theology of women. And, on the subject of the ordination of women,
the Church has said: No. John
Paul II said so with a definitive formula.
This question is closed, this door, but on this matter, I want to say
one thing. I have already said it, but
I’ll repeat. The Madonna, Mary, was more
important than the Apostles, more important than the bishops, than the deacons
and the priests. Women in the Church are
more important than bishops and priests; as to how, this is the
explanation we must work toward, so that we can better explain it, because I
believe that we need a theological explanation for this. Thank you.
Father Lombardi: Gian Guido Vecchi, from Corriere della
Sera, and I would ask Ms. Pigozzi and Nicole to come forward so that they
can speak afterward.
Gian Guido Vecchi: Holy Father, you also spoke a few times
during this trip about mercy. Regarding
the access to the Sacraments for those who are divorced and remarried, what is
the possibility of changing the discipline of the Church? Can these Sacraments be occasions for drawing
these people closer, instead of creating barriers that divide them from other
members of the faithful?
Pope Francis: This is a subject that is always
raised. Mercy is greater in these cases,
even more than you can imagine. I
believe that this is the time of mercy.
This change of era, with so many problems facing the Church – like the
bad witness on the part of some priests, and problems of corruption within the
Church, and the problem of clericalism, to site a few examples – have left many
wounded, many people wounded. The Church
is our Mother: we should take care of the wounded, by showing them mercy. If the Lord never tires of forgiving us, we
have no other choice than this: first of all, to care for those who are
wounded. And mommy, the Church, should
always proceed along the path of mercy … finding and showing mercy for and to
everyone. I think, when the prodigal son
returned to the house, the father didn’t say to him: You, listen to me,
explain yourself: what did you do with the money? No! He had a party! Then, when his son wanted to speak, he
spoke. The Church should do like
this. When there is someone …. We should
not only wait for them: we should go out and find them! This is mercy. I think that this a kairós (a
favorable time): this time is a kairós of mercy. John Paul II first understood this
intuitively when he communicated with Faustina Kowalska, the Divine Mercy … he
was on to something, he knew intuitively that mercy was necessary for our
time. With regard to the problem of
Communion for persons in second unions – because divorced persons can receive
Communion, there is no problem, but when they are in a second union, then they
cannot. I believe that we need to look
at this as part of the bigger picture of the pastoral approach to
marriage. This is the problem. But also – a parenthetical note – the
Orthodox have a different practice. They
follow the theology of economy, as they call it, and provide a second
possibility, they permit second marriages.
I believe that this problem – close the parentheses – should be studied within
the framework of the pastoral approach to marriage. Two things about this: first, it is one of the
themes for consultation with the Council of Eight Cardinals, with those who
will be meeting from October 1 to 3, how to approach the pastoral care of
marriage, and this problem will come out there.
And a second thing: fifteen days ago, the Secretary of the Synod of
Bishops was with me, discussing the theme of the next Synod. It was an anthropological theme, but we talked
and talked, around and around in circles, we finally found this anthropological
theme: faith as an aid to the fulfilment of the person, in the family, and
continuing toward the pastoral care of marriage. We are moving toward a deeper understanding
of a pastoral approach to marriage. This
is a problem for all of us, because there are so many cases, right? For example, more than once I’ve heard it
said: Cardinal Quarracino, my predecessor, used to say that for him half of the
weddings he witnessed were nullified. Why
would he say such a thing? Because
people marry without adequate maturity, they marry without realizing that
marriage is for life, or they marry because socially, they have to marry. And added to this is the question of the
pastoral approach to marriage. There are
also juridical problems concerning the nullity of marriage, things we need to
revisit, because the Ecclesiastical Tribunals don’t always have the
answers. The problem of a pastoral
approach to marriage is complex. Thank
you.
Father Lombardi: Thank you.
now we have Miss Pigozzi who is from Paris Match, and also from
the French-speaking group.
Caroline Pigozzi:
Good evening Your Holiness. I
want to know if you, now that you are Pope, still feel that you are Jesuit …
Pope Francis: This is a theological question because
Jesuits take a vow of obedience to the Pope, but if the Pope is Jesuit, then he
should vow obedience to the Jesuit General … I don’t know how to resolve this …
I feel Jesuit in my spirituality; in the spirituality of the Exercises,
spirituality, that which I have in my heart.
So much do I feel this way that in three days’ time, I will celebrate
with the Jesuits the Feast of Saint Ignatius: I will celebrate Mass in the
morning. I haven’t changed my
spirituality, no. Francis, Franciscan:
no. I am Jesuit and I think of myself as
a Jesuit. Not hypocritically, but I
think like a Jesuit. Thank you.
Father Lombardi: If you still have strength, there are a
few more questions. Now, Nicole
Winfield, who is from Associated Press, and then … but was it not … but,
I had a list; it’s here, really, I believe that you had organized … Ah, good,
Elisabetta, you made a list too, excuse me.
Nicole Winfield: Your Holiness, thank you again for having
come among the lions. Your Holiness,
four months into your Pontificate, I would like you to reflect on your
experience. What’s the best thing about
being Pope, an anecdote, and what’s the most challenging part, and what
surprised you the most during this period?
Pope Francis: I don’t know how to answer that question,
really. Big things, there haven’t been
any big things. Beautiful things, yes;
for example, the meeting with the Italian Bishops was so beautiful, so
beautiful. As Bishop of the Capital of
Italy, I felt right at home with them.
And this was very good, but I don’t know if it was the best. My visit to Lampedusa was very painful, it touched
my heart. Even though it made me cry, it was good for me. When the boats arrive
on the coastline, we know that they have had to leave others behind; they
arrive alone. This causes me pain
because I think of the persons who are victims of a world-wide socio-economic
system. But the worst thing – excuse me –
that happened to me is a sciatica – really! – I had it during the first couple
of months because in order for me to do the interviews, they provided me with a
throne and it caused me a bit of pain.
It was a very painful sciatica, truly painful! I wouldn’t wish it on anyone! But all those things: speaking with people,
meeting with seminarians and religious, were beautiful, they were truly
beautiful. Also the meeting with some of
the members of the Jesuit colleges was a beautiful moment, something very good.
Question: What was the most surprising thing?
Pope Francis: The people, the people, the good people
that I found. I discovered so many good
people in the Vatican. I was thinking
about what to say, but that is true. I
believe I am justified in saying so: there are so many good people. So many good people, truly good, good, good!
Father Lombardi: Elisabetta, who you know and also Sergio
Rubini, wow – he’s right here, so it’s a meeting of the Argentinians.
Elisabetta
Piqué: Pope Francis, first of all, on behalf of the 50 thousand Argentinians
who I have met, and who have told me, When you are travelling with the Pope,
please tell him that he did a fantastic job, a stupendous job, ask him when we
will see him, but he has already said that he will not go … So, ask him a more
difficult question. Ask him if he got
scared when he saw the report on Vatileaks.
Pope Francis: No! I’ll tell you a story about the Vatileaks
report. When I went to see Pope
Benedict, after having prayed in the chapel, we were in his studio and I saw a
large box and a fat envelope. Excuse
me. Benedict said to me, In this
large box are all the declarations, the things that the witnesses have said, it’s
all there, but the summary and the final judgment is in that envelope. And here it says … He knew everything from memory! What intelligence! Everything from memory, everything! No, (words in Spanish) it didn’t scare me,
no. But it’s a big problem, eh? But it didn’t scare me.
Sergio Rubín: Your Holiness, two things. This is the first: You have insisted strongly
on the importance of stopping the loss of the faithful. In Brazil you were very strong on this
point. Is it your hope that this trip
might contribute in some way toward inspiring people to return to the Church,
that they might feel that they are closer to one another? And the second, a more personal question: you
loved Argentina and also Buenos Aires.
The Argentinians are curious to know if you miss Buenos Aires, where you
used to travel in buses, coaches, minivans and on foot in the streets. Thank you very much.
Pope Francis: I believe that a
papal voyage always does some good. And
I believe that for Brazil, this trip will do much good, but not only because of
the presence of the Pope, but because of all the good that has been
accomplished through the World Youth Day – the people have been mobilized and
they will do much good. Hopefully the
Church will help this process in many ways.
But all these faithful who went to Brazil, many of them are not happy
because they feel a particular sense of belonging to the Church. I believe that this will be a positive, not
only for the trip, but above all for the World Youth Day: the Day was a
marvelous event. And about Buenos Aires,
yes, sometimes I miss it, and I feel sad, but it is a serene sense of loss, I
miss it in a serene way. However, I
believe that you, Sergio, know be better than all the others, you can answer
this question for yourself. With the
book that you have written!
Father
Lombardi: So, now we have a russion and then there is Valentina, who was the
leader; she wanted to be last.
Alexey
Bukalov: Good evening Your Holiness.
Holy Father, on the subject of ecumenism, today, the Orthodox are
celebrating 1,025 years of Christianity; there are grand celebrations in many
cities. If you would make a comment on
this fact, I would be happy to welcome it.
Thank you.
Pope Francis: The Orthodox
Churches have kept their pristine liturgy, it is so beautiful. We have pierced a bit of the sense of
adoration. They conserve it, they praise
God, they adore God, they sing, time doesn’t matter. God is at the centre, and this is a treasure
which I would like to speak about now that you have posed the question. Once, speaking of the Oriental church, about
Western Europe, above all the most faithfully believing Church, I heard this phrase,
Lux ex oriente, ex occidente luxus. Consumerism
and a sense of well-being have caused so much to corrupt. Instead, you conserve the beauty of being
focused, centred on God as a point of reference. When we read Dostoevskij - I think that
everyone should read and re-read his work, because it holds a particular wisdom
– we can better understand the Russian soul, the soul of the orient. It is one of the things that you do so
well. We need this kind of renewal, the
fresh Oriental air; we need the light of the Orient. John Paul II wrote about it in his
letter. Too many times, the luxus of
the Orient is lost on the horizon. I’m
not sure if this answers your question, but this is what comes to mind. Thank you.
Father
Lombardi: And now, we conclude with Valentina.
She concluded the question period during the trip to Rio; now she
concludes this question period on the flight home.
Valentina
Alazraki: Your Holiness, thank you for keeping your promise to answer our
questions during this return flight.
Pope Francis: You are making us late for supper.
Valentina
Alazraki: That’s not important … My question, on behalf of all the Mexicans
would be: when will you go to Guadalupe?
This is the question on the minds of all Mexicans. Mine would be: you will canonize two great
popes: John XXIII and John Paul II. I
want to ask what is – in your opinion – the model of sanctity that can be
learned from these two men and what impact have they had on the Church and on
you?
Pope Francis: John XXIII is
the typical figure of the country priest, the priest who loves every one
of the faithful, who knows how to take care of people and he did it also as a
bishop and as a Nuncio. Just think of
the number of false testimonies of Baptism he gave in Turkey in favour of the
Jews! He is courageous, a good country
priest, with such a wonderful sense of humor, and a great saint. When he was Nuncio, there were some in the
Vatican who didn’t exactly love him, and when he would arrive and try to
address questions or other matters, in certain offices they would make him
wait. He never complained: he would pray
his Rosary, he would read his Breviary, he would never complain. He was a mild and humble man, who had a love
for the poor. When Cardinal Casaroli had
returned from a mission – I believe it was to Hungary or perhaps the one to
Czechoslovakia at the time, I’m not sure which one of the two – he went to
report about his mission, in that era of diplomacy in the little countries. He was granted an audience – 20 days
afterward, John XXIII would be dead – and while Casaroli was leaving, they
stopped him: Ah, Your Eminence – no, he wasn’t Your Eminence – Your Excellency,
a question: do you still go to visit the young boys? … because Casaroli would go to the
juvenile penitentiary at Casal del Marmo and play (sports) with the
inmates. Casaroli said, Yes, yes! I will never abandon them. These were the words of a diplomat, who
had lived the life of diplomacy, such a demanding life; John XXIII said Never
abandon the youth. He is a great
man, a great man! And a man of the
Council: he is a man who was always docile to the voice of God, for the entire
project of the Council was inspired by the Holy Spirit who invited, and John
XXIII was docile in welcoming it. Pius
XII had thought of doing it, but the circumstances were not right. I believe that John XXIII had not considered
the circumstances: he had sensed the need, and he did it. He was a man who allowed himself to be guided
by the Lord.
John Paul II I would call the great missionary of the Church. He was a missionary, a true missionary, a man
who took the Gospel everywhere, you know it better than I do. How many trips did he make? He was always on the go! He sensed the fire of mission and took the
Word of God everywhere. He was another
Paul, another Saint Paul, he was that kind of man; for me he is a great
man. To celebrate the canonization
ceremony for these two together, I believe will give a message to the Church:
these two were good, they are wonderful men, they are two of our heroes. The cause for sainthood for Paul VI is also
in progress and also that of Pope Luciani: these two are in process. And another thing that I think I’ve already
said, but I’m not sure whether I said it here or in another place: the date of
the canonization. We were thinking about
December 8 of this year, but there is a big problem; those who will come from
Poland, the poor – those who have the means would come by plane, but how
many of the poor would come by bus and
already in December the roads will be icy and I think that we should reconsider
the date. I spoke with Cardinal Dziwisz
and he has suggested two possibilities: either the Solemnity of Christ the King
this year, or Divine Mercy Sunday next year.
I think it’s too soon to hold the Canonization on the Solemnity of
Christ the King this year because the Consistory will take place on September
30 and there would be too little time if we were to schedule it for the end of
October, but I don’t know. I have to
speak with Cardinal Amato about this, but I think that December 8 won’t work.
Question: Will they be canonized together?
Pope Francis: Both of them,
together, yes.
Father
Lombardi: Thank you Your Holiness. Who
else is there? Ilze? Then you will have
done them all, even more than those who had first registered …
Ilze
Scamparini: I would like your permission
to ask a rather delicate question: there’s another picture that has made its
way around the world, the one of Monsignor Ricca and the news about him. I would like to know, Holiness, what do you
intend to do about this question? How will
you confront this question and how does Your Holiness intend to confront the
question of the gay lobbyists?
Pope Francis: As to Monsignor
Ricca: I have done that which the Code of Canon Law mandates, that is a private
investigation. And this
investigation has revealed nothing to substantiate the accusations, we found
nothing. This is the response. But I want to add another thing to this: I
see that often in the Church, both in this case and in others like it, we look
for the sins of youth, for example, and we publish them. I’m not talking about crimes, eh? Crimes are another thing altogether: the
abuse of minors is a crime. No, I’m
talking about sins. If a person, laity
or priest or religious sister, has committed a sin and then is converted, the
Lord pardons, and when the Lord forgives, the Lord forgets. This is important for us in this life. When we go to confession and speak the
truthfully: I have sinned, the Lord forgets and we do not have the right
to not forget, because we would run the risk of the Lord not forgetting our own
sins. This would be a dangerous position
to put ourselves in. This is important:
a theology of sin. Many times I think of
Saint Peter: he committed one of the most serious sins, he denied knowing
Christ, and even having done so, he was made Pope. We should always remember this. But let’s get back to your question: in this case, I made a private
investigation and we found nothing.
This was the first question.
Then, you were speaking about the gay lobby. Well.
There is so much written about the gay lobby. I haven’t yet found anyone who will give me a
Vatican identity card with the word gay printed on it. I don’t believe we have one. When we find ourselves with a person like
that, we should distinguish the fact of being a gay person, from the fact of carrying
on a lobby, because not all lobbies are good.
Some are bad. If a person is gay
and seeks the Lord and has good intentions, who am I to judge? The Catechism of the Catholic Church speaks
so beautifully about this. It says …
wait a moment … it says, we should not marginalize these persons for this
reason, they should be integrated into society. The problem is not having this tendency, no,
we should all be brothers, because this is one, but if there is another, another. The problem arises when we lobby for trends: there
are many kinds of lobby, motivated by greed, political lobbies, Massonic
lobbies, so many lobbies. For me, this
is the biggest problem. I thank you so very
much for asking this question. Thank you
very much!
Father Lombardi:
Thank you. I think that we can’t
do any more. I think that we’ve taken
advantage of the Pope who had already told us that he was tired and we now wish
him some time to rest a bit.
Pope Francis:
Thank you all, good night, enjoy the flight and sleep well.
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