During the flight from Lima to Rome on Sunday night, at the conclusion of the Apostolic Voyage to Chile and Perú, the Holy Father met with the journalists aboard the flight and held a Press Conference.
Greg Burke
Holy Father, thank you! Thank you for the time that you give us tonight, after a long and intense voyage, sometimes it has been hot and humid, but it has been a rich voyage in which you have touched the hearts of the people, the holy and faithful people of God, with a message of peace and hope. But you also confronted the challenges facing the Church in Chile, and the Church in Perú, and even for those two societies, with special attention to human dignity, to the indigenous people and to Amazonia. Thank you for the opportunity to follow you so closely. And now, we want to try to deepen the themes of this voyage a little more.
Pope Francis
Good evening. Thank you for your work. This has been a trip ... I don't know how to explain it in Italian, but in Spanish we say: pasteurizado (pasteurized), like we do with milk: it goes from cold to hot, from hot to cold, and we have gone from the South of Chile, cool, that beautiful landscape, to the desert, to the forest of Maldonado, then to Trujillo, the sea, and then to Lima: all the temperatures and all the climates. And this makes us tired. Thank you very much. And now, the questions.
Greg Burke
We have questions from Perú and from Chile to begin. First, here is Armando Canchanya.
Pope Francis
Let's begin with questions about the trip, all of them, and when we are finished with those, if there is something else about the trip, I will tell you, and then the other questions, if there are any.
Greg Burke
Perfect. Armando Canchanya Alaya from RPP in Perú.
Armando Canchanya Alaya
RPP, Perú
Holy Father, I want to thank you for allowing us to accompany you on this trip. You said on the outbound flight that you did not know Perú very well, and during these days you have had an opportunity to travel to three cities ... I wanted to ask you about this trip during which people turned out to see you. They even came to affectionately tell you: Panchito, don't go ... What does the Holy Father take away from this trip, what does he take away from his time in Perú?
Pope Francis
I get the impression that they are a believing people, a people who have experienced many difficulties, and this has been part of their history, but theirs is a faith that impresses me. Not only the faith in Trujillo, where popular piety is very rich and very strong, but the faith that exists in the streets. You saw them in the streets, and not only in Lima, where it was obviously notable, but also in Trujillo. Also in Puerto Maldonado I thought that I saw it in a place like that - and the plaza was full - and when I went from one place to another, the streets were all full. We can say that they were a people who came out to express their joy and their faith. It is true that you have - as I said at noon today (during the Angelus address) - you are an expanded land, you are the Latin-American people who have the most saints. And very high-level saints: Toribio, Rose, Martin, Juan. I believe that you have faith deep within you. I take from Perú an impression of joy, of faith, of hope, of wanting to go out, and above all ... many children. In other words, I saw once again the image that I saw in the Philippines and in Colombia: fathers and mothers raising their children and that says that there is a future, it says that there is hope, because no one would bring children into the world if there was no hope. The only thing that I would ask them is that they take care of their treasures, not only the treasures that are contained in churches and in museums - those works of art are wonderful - not only those objects that portray the history of the holiness and the sufferings of society that have enriched them very much, but the treasure of these days that we have just lived together.
Ghiovani Amilcar Hinojosa Navarro
La República, Perú
Your Holiness, in Perú, the political class has defrauded the people, with acts of corruption and negotiated pardons. But some members of the Church have also done this: it suffices to see the victims of the Sodalicio (Sodality) of Christian Life who are hoping for justice to be served. What responses can you give to these cases?
Pope Francis
Well, first is the problem of corruption. I would not know how to respond historically to the progression of corruption or historically in other sectors of the world. I know that in some countries in Europe there is a lot of corruption - in some of them, not all - Yes, in Latin America, there are many sources of corruption. Now, for example, it is fashionable to talk about Odebrecht. But that is just one case. The origin of corruption is ... I would say that it is original sin that takes hold of us ... I once wrote a little book, a very little book, that was called Corruption and sin; and the wisdom that I draw from that, from that book, is: sinner yes, corrupt, no. We are all sinners. But I know that all of us who are here, at least this is my hope, and ... I think especially of you - when you encounter an off side, a strong sinful temptation: Well, this is wrong, here I behaved badly with a friend ... or I stole ... or I did this ... or I used drugs, and then I stop myself and try not to do these things. Well, but there is God's forgiveness above all. I am not afraid of sin, I am afraid of corruption because corruption is already violating the soul and the body, and a corrupt man is so sure of himself that he cannot go back to the way things were. Or perhaps corruption is like the chupadizos swamps that you step into and want to leave, and you take a step, and you're sucked in, deeper, deeper, deeper, and you get sucked in. It is a swamp ... That is the destruction of the human person. I don't know if I touched on something - if you want to ask something more about corruption, otherwise I'll go on to Sodalicio.
And it is clear, politicians have a lot of power. An employer has a lot of power. An employer who pays only half his workers is corrupt, and a housewife who believes and thinks that it is very normal to exploit her maids, either by means of their salaries or by the way that they are treated, is corrupt, because she believes this to be normal. Once, I remember a conversation I had with a person, a professional. He told me how he was doing things. He was young, about thirty years old. He told me that he treated his domestic servants in a non-noble way, and he told me the things that he would do to his domestic staff. I told him: But ... you cannot do that. That is sinful. Father - he said - let's not compare those people with me. Those people are there for that purpose. And this is what the sexual trafficker thinks, the slave handler: those who are corrupt.
And in the Church, is there corruption? Yes. There are cases of corruption in the Church. Throughout the history of the Church there have always been such cases. There have always been such cases because men and women of the Church have entered the game of corruption, and this serves as a bridge for the Sodalicio. The Sodalicio began with the case of a person who seemed very ... very virtuous. He died and, after investigating, it was discovered that he led a double life. This is the first case of the Sodalicio that I know of, but it took place 20, 25 years ago, and then there was a denunciation of abuse, not only sexual, but also an abuse of manipulation of conscience on the part of the founder. The case of the founder entered into the Holy See. He was given a sentence; he was not expelled from the Sodalicio but he lives alone, and someone takes care of him. He says that he is innocent despite the evidence presented in the trial and appealed to the Apostolic Signatura, which is the Vatican's Supreme Court of Justice. The case is being appealed. From what I've been told, the decision will be announced within a month. The process takes a year. In less than a month, the decision will be known. But what happens now? That trial was the trigger for other victims of that person to seek civil and ecclesial justice. Therefore, if the Apostolic Signatura puts an end to this first case for justice ... - whether for or against - it will no longer make sense, because this man, now yes, there are some things that are much more serious than justice will reveal but there are several serious cases where justice intervened, something that is always convenient in cases of abuse because it is a right. I believe, as far as I know, but I'm not very aware, that the case is very unfavourable to the founder. On the other hand, this was not solely a personal situation, there were some details that were not very clear.
Then, almost two years ago, I sent a Visitator to Sodalicio in the person of Cardinal Tobin, the Bishop of Newark. Cardinal Tobin visited; he discovered some things that we did not understand, or that were not clear; he named two economic observers and this is the third case of abuse that has involved the founder: concerning economic management. And then the study recommended curating Sodalicio. His letter arrived four weeks ago, the case was studied and a commissioner was appointed two weeks ago. If the Sodalicio is being curated by the Holy See today, this is the reason. A similar case- it would seem to say in the new procedures, not in accusations - is that of the Legionaries and that one was solved at the time by Pope Benedict XVI who was very firm and very strong in that matter. Benedict would not tolerate such things, and I learned from him not to tolerate such things either. I don't know if I have answered your question. In other words, the legal status of the Sodalicio today is a matter of commissioning and later on of an Apostolic Visit.
Juan Pablo Iglesias Mori
La Tercera
Good evening, Holy Father, thank you very much for this opportunity to ask you some questions about the trip. I wanted to ask you about your first message in Chile which was very clearly against abuse. You spoke about shame, you spoke about understanding the pain of the victims, but on the final day, in the statement you made about Bishop Barros, there was also a statement that he ultimately tried to lie or to slander the victims, what more will the testimony of Bishop Barros provide to the victims? Is it not a case of betrayal of the trust toward victims that you raised in Chile?
Pope Francis
I understand the question. Concerning Barros, I made a statement, not statements: one. I was speaking in Chile, and that was in Iquique, at the end. I spoke twice in Chile about the abuses: very strongly in front of the government, which was a matter of speaking in front of the Country, and in the Cathedral with the priests. The discourse that I shared with the priests is what I feel most deeply about this case. You know that Pope Benedict began to observe a policy of zero tolerance, I am also following the policy of zero tolerance, and after almost five years of my pontificate, I am yet to sign a request for grace. The Processes go like this: they enter the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Congregation gives a sentence ... In the cases of removal from the clerical state, the judgement in the first instance is final; the person who is found guilty has the right to appeal. There is a Court of Appeal, of second instance. The Court of Appeal knows that if there is clear evidence of abuse, there is no place for an appeal; there is no appeal, what can be appealed are the procedures: failures of the procedures, irregularities ..., then we either have to sentence or to revise the process, as is the case in any court; is that not the case? If the second instance confirms the first, there is only one way out for the person, and that is to appeal to the Pope for grace. In the past five years, I have received - I do not know the number - 20, 25 cases of people who were encouraged to ask for grace. I haven't signed any of them. Only in one case, which was not a matter of grace for anything, there was a discussion about a juridical sentence, during the first year of my pontificate, and I found two sentences. One of them was a very serious one that came from the dioceses, and the other was from the Doctrine of the Faith. The Doctrine of the Faith was the harder one, the one that came from the dioceses was very serious, requiring caution and many conditions. In other words, with these conditions, we have to wait a while and see if ... that is to say, we did not close the case. This is the case with all good jurisprudence, always in favour of the accused, I opted for the weaker one, with conditions. After two years, it was assessed that the conditions were not met and then I let the other option take effect. This was the only case where I doubted, but there were two sentences and there was a legal principle, in dubio pro reo, right? And so I opted for that. That is my position. Now the case of Bishop Barros. It is a case that I studied, investigated, I worked on it a lot, and really there was no evidence - I use the word evidence, because later I'll speak about the evidence - there was no evidence of guilt, rather it appears that they will find it because there is coherence in another sense. So, based on the fact that there was no evidence, I expect that there will be some evidence to change the position, if not we will apply the basic juridical principle in every tribunal: nemo malus nisi probetur, nothing is bad unless it is proven to be so. And there is the word test, which I believe is the one that played me a dirty trick.
I was speaking in Castillian Spanish - excuse me, I did not notice ...
I was arriving and a journalist from Iquique asked me: We in Chile have a big problem with Bishop Barros. What do you think? I believe that the words I used were these. First I thought: 'Should I respond or not? I said yes. Why? Because Barros had been Bishop of Iquique and a parishioner of his was asking. He had a right to an answer. I said: On the day when I have proof, we'll talk. I believe I said: I do not have any proof, I think so, but I don't remember. But it is recorded, you can find it.
So the word test was not the best word to use in approaching a sorrowful heart; I would say evidence ... In the case of Barros, the case was studied, it was re-studied, and there was no evidence, and that is what I wanted to say: there is no evidence upon which to condemn him. And in this case, if I condemn without evidence or without moral certainty, I would commit - a crime of bad judgement. But there is something else I want to say. do you understand Italian?
I will explain it in Italian. One of you came to me and told me: Did you see the letter that got out?, and showed me a letter that I had written a few years ago, when the Barros problem began. I need to explain that letter, because it is also a letter in favour of prudence with which we dealt with the Barros problem. That letter is not the narration of a precise fact; that letter is the narration of more or less ten to twelve months. When the Karadima scandal broke - he is a man about whom we all know the scandal - we began to see how many priests who had been formed by Karadima had been abused or had become abusers. In Chile, there are four bishops who Karadima had sent to the seminary. Some people from the Episcopal Conference suggested that these bishops - three of them, because a fourth one was very sick and did not have a diocese entrusted to him, but three had diocesan responsibilities - if these bishops were perhaps better off, they should resign, they should take a sabbatical year and then, after the storm had passed, in order to avoid accusations ... because they are good bishops, good bishops. ...
Like Barros: Barros was already ordained a bishop for twenty years. He was destined to finish as Military Ordinary because he had first been Auxiliary of Valparaíso, then Bishop of Iquique and then Military Ordinary for almost ten years. He says: We asked him to resign, perhaps to explain things ... and he generously presented his resignation. He came to Rome, and I told him: No. That's not how we do things. To do that would be to admit your guilt. In every case, if there is guilt, we investigate. And I refused to accept his resignation. It's been ten months since that letter was written. Then, when he was named (in Osorno), there was a large movement of protest, and he gave me his resignation for a second time. I told him: No, you go. I spoke with him a long time, others spoke with him for a long time: You go. And you know what happened there the day when he took possession of the diocese. The investigation about Barros continued: no evidence came to light. For this reason ... that's what I wanted to say. I cannot condemn him, because I have no evidence; but I too am convinced that he is innocent.
I want to continue with a third point - the issue of the letter I've clearly explained, how it all turned out - now I want to continue with a third point: how those who have been abused feel. About this, I have to ask you to excuse me, because the word trial has hurt, wounded many of the abused. Ah, do I have to go and look for that certificate, or to do this .... ? No. It is a word that translates a legal principle and it has wounded, and I ask them to forgive me if I have wounded them without realizing it, but it's a wound that has been inflicted unintentionally. And to me, this causes so much pain, because I receive them, and in Chile I received two of them who were there; and there were others who were more hidden. In Perú, no. But during every voyage, there is always a possibility. The ones I saw in Philadelphia were published, those others ... two, three were published; other cases were not published ... I know how much they suffer. To feel that the Pope has said to their faces bring me a letter with the proof, is like a slap in the face. And now, I realize that my expression was not happy, because I had not thought about that. And I understand - as the apostle Peter says in one of his letters - the fire that has been lit. This is what I can say with certainty. Barros will stay there if I do not find a way to condemn him. I cannot condemn him if I don't have - I won't say proof - if I have no evidence. And there are many ways to get evidence. Is it clear? Great.
They tell me that after the turbulence with Barros and Sodalizio, there is another more meteorological one. I would stay here. If you don't mind, we will refrain from looking at it, sitting down, wasting time: because dinner is coming soon and they will cut the press conference short. They say that the angels don't have backs: let's see ... I will stand up as long as I don't move; if we start shaking, I will continue to sit down.
Greg Burke
Let's stay in Chile with Matilde Burgos, from CNN Chile.
Matilde Burgos
CNN, Chile
Thank you very much, Your Holiness, for this voyage to our country. I see that you want the case of Barros to be very clear; that is why, before I ask my question, I want to clarify something; Why is the testimony of victims not acceptable for you as evidence? Why do you not believe them? And the second question is: To what do you attribute your consideration of your visit to Chile as a failure of the faithful and a failure of the Church to be more divided?
Pope Francis
The testimony of victims is always evidence. Always. In the case of Barros we have none: there is no evidence. Perhaps it began with that bad decision to resign and people began to accuse him. But about abuse, we don't have any evidence.
Matilde Burgos
About covering up abuses ...
Pope Francis
Yes, yes, about coverups, it is an abuse. That is to say that concealing abuse is an abuse. We have no evidence. This is why, the best thing is for the one who believes that it is that way to provide the relevant evidence right away. If they believe that it is honestly that way. At this moment, I do not believe that is the case because there is no evidence, but I have an open heart and I will receive them. The other, from Chile is a Chinese story. I was happy in Chile. I wasn't expecting so many people in the streets, and they had not paid the entrance, eh? Those people had not paid into any collection, the spontaneity of the Chilean expression was very strong; including in Iquique, which I thought was going to be something small because Iquique is in the desert. You saw what happened to people, no? The same was true in the south. And the streets of Santiago spoke for themselves. In that case, I believe that it is the responsibility of the informer to provide concrete facts. And as for people who are divided? I don't know where that is coming from. This is the first time that I've heard this. Perhaps this case of Barros is what created all this, but seeing it in the light of its reality may be helpful. However, the impression that he presented in Chile was very good and gratifying, and it seemed that he was very strong. Afterwards, I would like to return ... - at least for a moment - to what most moved me about Chile, but that will be before we move on to other issues, if we have time.
Greg Burke
Let us continue with the Italian group, Andrea Tornielli.
Andrea Tornielli
La Stampa
Yes, Holiness, I wanted to speak about what you said on the day you spent in Amazonia, because there was also an element in that speech, if you would permit me, something new, that is to say, not only the threat posed by large economic groups but also the threat - you also spoke about perversions - of some environmental policies that end up stifling some people's lives. So, is there an environmentalism that is against humanity?
Pope Francis
Yes. In that area ... At this moment, I cannot describe it well, but it protects the forest in order to save some tribes that were left out and the forest would be finished because of exploitation. But the most concrete fact in this case is in the statistics about that area. In that place, I think that you will surely find the precise information. It is a phenomenon that, in order to protect the environment, ends up by isolating: they have remained isolated from real progress; a phenomenon that can be verified there, in that area, and in information that was sent in preparation for this voyage, information which I studied. Thank you.
Greg Burke
And now, Aura Miguel, from Radio Renascença.
Aura María Vistas Miguel
Radio Renascença
Your Holiness, my question concerns the celebration of marriage aboard the plane. From now on, what would you say to parish priests, bishops, when engaged couples come and ask to be married - I don't know where - on a beach, in a park, on a boat, in the air ... What would you say?
Pope Francis
But can you imagine: cruises with weddings ... This would be ... One of you said to me that I was crazy to do these things. The thing was simple. The man was on the preceding flight, you were not there. And I spoke with him ... Afterwards, I realized that he had probed me: he had spoken about life, about what I thought about life, about family life, he spoke ... we had a good chat. Then, the next day, they were both there, and when we took the photograph, they said to me: We were going to be married in church, we were married with a civil ceremony, but the day before - we saw that they were from a small town - the church was damaged in the earthquake and there was no wedding. This happened ten years ago, perhaps 8 years ago: in 2010; there was an earthquake, 8 years ago. Yes, we will do it tomorrow, the day after tomorrow ... That's life, then we had a daughter, then another daughter ... But we always had this concern in our hearts: we are not married. I asked them a few questions, and the responses were clear: For all our lives ... And how do you know these things? Do you have a good memory of your catechism ...? No, we did the pre-marriage course. They were prepared.
To parish priests, I would say that these two were prepared, and I judged that they were prepared. They asked me: the sacraments are for human beings. All the conditions were clear. And why not do today what we can do today, and not wait until tomorrow, a tomorrow that might be 10, 8 years later? This is the response. I judged that they were prepared, that they knew what they were doing. They were both prepared in front of the Lord, with the sacrament of Penance, and then they were married. And when we arrived, everything was done ... They told me that they had said to one of you: We are going to the Pope to ask if he will witness our marriage, I don't know if it is true or not that they had that intention. That's how it was. But if I can say to parish priests that the Pope questioned them well; and then, when they told me that they had done the course ... They were conscientious, they knew that they were in an irregular situation. Thank you.
Greg Burke
Your Holiness, we have spent almost an hour; I don't know if you want to entertain perhaps one or two other questions ...
Pope Francis
Yes, about the trip.
Greg Burke
Yes, about the trip. Nicole Winfield, Associated Press.
Pope Francis
Yes, because I have said almost nothing about Perú ...
Nicole Winfield
Associated Press
Ah, no. Chile again ...
Pope Francis
Ok ...
Nicole Winfield
Associated Press
Holy Father, yesterday, Cardinal O'Malley made a declaration about those comments concerning Bishop Barros, and he said that words like these are a source of sadness for survivors (the victims) of abuse with the effect of making them feel abandoned and discredited. You have told us that you felt bad ... I suppose, and I wonder, was it just Cardinal O'Malley's words that made you understand this pain? And then another question directed to this one. The Commission for Protection of Minors, headed by Cardinal O'Malley: the deadline for the first members involvement was last month. There are some people who see this deadline and are wondering whether this is a sign that the protection of minors is not really a priority ...
Pope Francis
I understand, I understand. Cardinal O'Malley ... I saw Cardinal O'Malley's declaration, he also said: The Pope has always defended victims ... the Pope has a zero tolerance ... With this expression, which is not easy, what you said has happened, and this has made me think of the effect of the word proof ... Calumny: yes, one who says persistently, without having any evidence, that you have done this, that this person has done this, this is calumny. If I say: You stole. - No, I didn't steal ... - You stole, you stole ... I am committing calumny because I have no evidence.
The journalist intervened
But I have not heard from any of Barros' victims ...
The Pope continued:
They have not come forward, they have not given evidence to the judge. This is a bit vague, it is something that we cannot accept. You, with every good intention, tell me that there are victims, but I haven't seen any because they have not come forward. It is true that Barros was from the group of youth there, Barros entered into the seminary ... I don't know when ... but he has been Bishop today for 24 or 23 years, he was a priest at the time for about 15 years. Many years ago, he entered very young. He says that he has not seen them. He was from the group, but then he went another way. In this, we need to be clear: one who accuses without evidence, persistently, that person commits calumny. But if a person comes and presents evidence, I am the first to listen to him or to her. We have to be just in this matter, very just. I thought about what Cardinal O'Malley said, I thank him for his declaration because it was very just, e said everything that I did and everything that I am doing and that the Church is doing, and then he spoke about the suffering of the victims, not in this case, in general. Because, as I said at the beginning, there are many victims who are not able, because of shame, for other reasons, to present documents, testimony ... And this. And the second question that you asked was ...?
Greg Burke
The Commission ...
Pope Francis
The Commission. The Commission, yes, they were appointed for three years, I believe. That time has expired; we are studying the new Commission and they, the members of the Commission themselves, decided to renew their mandate in part or to accept new nominations (new members). On the Tuesday before we left, it came - before my departure for this trip - the definitive list of the commission arrived and now the normal scrutiny of the Curia is taking place. There were a few remarks about one of the candidates that must be clarified, because for the new ones, the new people, we are studying their curricula vitae, like we did ... There were two questions that need to be clarified ... However in this regard, Cardinal O'Malley has done good work, the work of the commission has been good ... No, no, please don't think ... This is a normal part of the process of appointing people ...
Greg Burke
Your Holiness, let us take one more question. If it is about the trip ...
Catherine Merciano
AFP
Your Holiness, one of the Church's goals is to fight poverty. In Chile, over the past twenty years the level of poverty has declined from 40% to 11%. According to you, is this the result of liberal policies, according to you, is there liberalism? And a second small question regarding Cardinal Maradiaga ... What do you think about the news about him concerning money?
Pope Francis
About Cardinal Maradiaga, this is not about the trip, but I will respond. He made a video declaration, there is a video, and I say what he has said.
Concerning liberalism, I would say that we need to study the cases of liberal policies very well. There are other countries in Latin America with liberal policies that have led those countries into greater poverty. In this case, I truly do not know how to respond because I am not technically advanced in this regard, but in general, a liberal policy that does not concern all the people is selective and it brings people down. But it is a general rule, in the case of Chile, I truly do not know how to respond. We can see that in other countries in Latin America things always go down.
Concerning the trip, I want to say something that moved me very much. The women's prison: my heart was there. I am always very sensitive to those who are imprisoned and always, when I go into a prison, I ask myself: why them and not me ... Seeing those women, seeing the creativity of those women, their capacity to change and to want to change their lives, to re-enter society with the strength of the gospel ... One of you told me: I saw the joy of the gospel. This moved me, truly, I was very moved by that encounter. It was one of the most beautiful things about the trip.
Then in Puerto Maldonado, that meeting with the aboriginals, let's leave that subject because it is obvious that it was very moving, it gave a sign to the whole world ... That day was the first meeting of the pre-synodal Commission in preparation for the Synod on Amazonia which will take place in 2019. But I was moved in the Principito neighbourhood: to see those children, the majority of them have been abandoned, those young men and women who have succeeded, with education, to go ahead in life ... They are professionals ... This was very moving for me. The work that raises a person up, like the things about which we spoke before can bring a person down. This was the most moving part of the journey for me.
And then the people, the warmth of the people. Here, today, it was hard to believe that that was Lima! Beyond belief! The warmth of the people ... I say: this people have faith and this faith is contagious, and I thank God for that. And I thank you for the work that you still must do to create the articles and the news that you will share. Thank you for your patience and thank you for having asked precise questions. Thank you very much.
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holiness, for your patience. Rest well, enjoy your dinner. Thank you.
Transcription of the Press Conference
aboard the Papal flight from Lima to Rome
Greg Burke
Holy Father, thank you! Thank you for the time that you give us tonight, after a long and intense voyage, sometimes it has been hot and humid, but it has been a rich voyage in which you have touched the hearts of the people, the holy and faithful people of God, with a message of peace and hope. But you also confronted the challenges facing the Church in Chile, and the Church in Perú, and even for those two societies, with special attention to human dignity, to the indigenous people and to Amazonia. Thank you for the opportunity to follow you so closely. And now, we want to try to deepen the themes of this voyage a little more.
Pope Francis
Good evening. Thank you for your work. This has been a trip ... I don't know how to explain it in Italian, but in Spanish we say: pasteurizado (pasteurized), like we do with milk: it goes from cold to hot, from hot to cold, and we have gone from the South of Chile, cool, that beautiful landscape, to the desert, to the forest of Maldonado, then to Trujillo, the sea, and then to Lima: all the temperatures and all the climates. And this makes us tired. Thank you very much. And now, the questions.
Greg Burke
We have questions from Perú and from Chile to begin. First, here is Armando Canchanya.
Pope Francis
Let's begin with questions about the trip, all of them, and when we are finished with those, if there is something else about the trip, I will tell you, and then the other questions, if there are any.
Greg Burke
Perfect. Armando Canchanya Alaya from RPP in Perú.
Armando Canchanya Alaya
RPP, Perú
Holy Father, I want to thank you for allowing us to accompany you on this trip. You said on the outbound flight that you did not know Perú very well, and during these days you have had an opportunity to travel to three cities ... I wanted to ask you about this trip during which people turned out to see you. They even came to affectionately tell you: Panchito, don't go ... What does the Holy Father take away from this trip, what does he take away from his time in Perú?
Pope Francis
I get the impression that they are a believing people, a people who have experienced many difficulties, and this has been part of their history, but theirs is a faith that impresses me. Not only the faith in Trujillo, where popular piety is very rich and very strong, but the faith that exists in the streets. You saw them in the streets, and not only in Lima, where it was obviously notable, but also in Trujillo. Also in Puerto Maldonado I thought that I saw it in a place like that - and the plaza was full - and when I went from one place to another, the streets were all full. We can say that they were a people who came out to express their joy and their faith. It is true that you have - as I said at noon today (during the Angelus address) - you are an expanded land, you are the Latin-American people who have the most saints. And very high-level saints: Toribio, Rose, Martin, Juan. I believe that you have faith deep within you. I take from Perú an impression of joy, of faith, of hope, of wanting to go out, and above all ... many children. In other words, I saw once again the image that I saw in the Philippines and in Colombia: fathers and mothers raising their children and that says that there is a future, it says that there is hope, because no one would bring children into the world if there was no hope. The only thing that I would ask them is that they take care of their treasures, not only the treasures that are contained in churches and in museums - those works of art are wonderful - not only those objects that portray the history of the holiness and the sufferings of society that have enriched them very much, but the treasure of these days that we have just lived together.
Ghiovani Amilcar Hinojosa Navarro
La República, Perú
Your Holiness, in Perú, the political class has defrauded the people, with acts of corruption and negotiated pardons. But some members of the Church have also done this: it suffices to see the victims of the Sodalicio (Sodality) of Christian Life who are hoping for justice to be served. What responses can you give to these cases?
Pope Francis
Well, first is the problem of corruption. I would not know how to respond historically to the progression of corruption or historically in other sectors of the world. I know that in some countries in Europe there is a lot of corruption - in some of them, not all - Yes, in Latin America, there are many sources of corruption. Now, for example, it is fashionable to talk about Odebrecht. But that is just one case. The origin of corruption is ... I would say that it is original sin that takes hold of us ... I once wrote a little book, a very little book, that was called Corruption and sin; and the wisdom that I draw from that, from that book, is: sinner yes, corrupt, no. We are all sinners. But I know that all of us who are here, at least this is my hope, and ... I think especially of you - when you encounter an off side, a strong sinful temptation: Well, this is wrong, here I behaved badly with a friend ... or I stole ... or I did this ... or I used drugs, and then I stop myself and try not to do these things. Well, but there is God's forgiveness above all. I am not afraid of sin, I am afraid of corruption because corruption is already violating the soul and the body, and a corrupt man is so sure of himself that he cannot go back to the way things were. Or perhaps corruption is like the chupadizos swamps that you step into and want to leave, and you take a step, and you're sucked in, deeper, deeper, deeper, and you get sucked in. It is a swamp ... That is the destruction of the human person. I don't know if I touched on something - if you want to ask something more about corruption, otherwise I'll go on to Sodalicio.
And it is clear, politicians have a lot of power. An employer has a lot of power. An employer who pays only half his workers is corrupt, and a housewife who believes and thinks that it is very normal to exploit her maids, either by means of their salaries or by the way that they are treated, is corrupt, because she believes this to be normal. Once, I remember a conversation I had with a person, a professional. He told me how he was doing things. He was young, about thirty years old. He told me that he treated his domestic servants in a non-noble way, and he told me the things that he would do to his domestic staff. I told him: But ... you cannot do that. That is sinful. Father - he said - let's not compare those people with me. Those people are there for that purpose. And this is what the sexual trafficker thinks, the slave handler: those who are corrupt.
And in the Church, is there corruption? Yes. There are cases of corruption in the Church. Throughout the history of the Church there have always been such cases. There have always been such cases because men and women of the Church have entered the game of corruption, and this serves as a bridge for the Sodalicio. The Sodalicio began with the case of a person who seemed very ... very virtuous. He died and, after investigating, it was discovered that he led a double life. This is the first case of the Sodalicio that I know of, but it took place 20, 25 years ago, and then there was a denunciation of abuse, not only sexual, but also an abuse of manipulation of conscience on the part of the founder. The case of the founder entered into the Holy See. He was given a sentence; he was not expelled from the Sodalicio but he lives alone, and someone takes care of him. He says that he is innocent despite the evidence presented in the trial and appealed to the Apostolic Signatura, which is the Vatican's Supreme Court of Justice. The case is being appealed. From what I've been told, the decision will be announced within a month. The process takes a year. In less than a month, the decision will be known. But what happens now? That trial was the trigger for other victims of that person to seek civil and ecclesial justice. Therefore, if the Apostolic Signatura puts an end to this first case for justice ... - whether for or against - it will no longer make sense, because this man, now yes, there are some things that are much more serious than justice will reveal but there are several serious cases where justice intervened, something that is always convenient in cases of abuse because it is a right. I believe, as far as I know, but I'm not very aware, that the case is very unfavourable to the founder. On the other hand, this was not solely a personal situation, there were some details that were not very clear.
Then, almost two years ago, I sent a Visitator to Sodalicio in the person of Cardinal Tobin, the Bishop of Newark. Cardinal Tobin visited; he discovered some things that we did not understand, or that were not clear; he named two economic observers and this is the third case of abuse that has involved the founder: concerning economic management. And then the study recommended curating Sodalicio. His letter arrived four weeks ago, the case was studied and a commissioner was appointed two weeks ago. If the Sodalicio is being curated by the Holy See today, this is the reason. A similar case- it would seem to say in the new procedures, not in accusations - is that of the Legionaries and that one was solved at the time by Pope Benedict XVI who was very firm and very strong in that matter. Benedict would not tolerate such things, and I learned from him not to tolerate such things either. I don't know if I have answered your question. In other words, the legal status of the Sodalicio today is a matter of commissioning and later on of an Apostolic Visit.
Juan Pablo Iglesias Mori
La Tercera
Good evening, Holy Father, thank you very much for this opportunity to ask you some questions about the trip. I wanted to ask you about your first message in Chile which was very clearly against abuse. You spoke about shame, you spoke about understanding the pain of the victims, but on the final day, in the statement you made about Bishop Barros, there was also a statement that he ultimately tried to lie or to slander the victims, what more will the testimony of Bishop Barros provide to the victims? Is it not a case of betrayal of the trust toward victims that you raised in Chile?
Pope Francis
I understand the question. Concerning Barros, I made a statement, not statements: one. I was speaking in Chile, and that was in Iquique, at the end. I spoke twice in Chile about the abuses: very strongly in front of the government, which was a matter of speaking in front of the Country, and in the Cathedral with the priests. The discourse that I shared with the priests is what I feel most deeply about this case. You know that Pope Benedict began to observe a policy of zero tolerance, I am also following the policy of zero tolerance, and after almost five years of my pontificate, I am yet to sign a request for grace. The Processes go like this: they enter the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith and the Congregation gives a sentence ... In the cases of removal from the clerical state, the judgement in the first instance is final; the person who is found guilty has the right to appeal. There is a Court of Appeal, of second instance. The Court of Appeal knows that if there is clear evidence of abuse, there is no place for an appeal; there is no appeal, what can be appealed are the procedures: failures of the procedures, irregularities ..., then we either have to sentence or to revise the process, as is the case in any court; is that not the case? If the second instance confirms the first, there is only one way out for the person, and that is to appeal to the Pope for grace. In the past five years, I have received - I do not know the number - 20, 25 cases of people who were encouraged to ask for grace. I haven't signed any of them. Only in one case, which was not a matter of grace for anything, there was a discussion about a juridical sentence, during the first year of my pontificate, and I found two sentences. One of them was a very serious one that came from the dioceses, and the other was from the Doctrine of the Faith. The Doctrine of the Faith was the harder one, the one that came from the dioceses was very serious, requiring caution and many conditions. In other words, with these conditions, we have to wait a while and see if ... that is to say, we did not close the case. This is the case with all good jurisprudence, always in favour of the accused, I opted for the weaker one, with conditions. After two years, it was assessed that the conditions were not met and then I let the other option take effect. This was the only case where I doubted, but there were two sentences and there was a legal principle, in dubio pro reo, right? And so I opted for that. That is my position. Now the case of Bishop Barros. It is a case that I studied, investigated, I worked on it a lot, and really there was no evidence - I use the word evidence, because later I'll speak about the evidence - there was no evidence of guilt, rather it appears that they will find it because there is coherence in another sense. So, based on the fact that there was no evidence, I expect that there will be some evidence to change the position, if not we will apply the basic juridical principle in every tribunal: nemo malus nisi probetur, nothing is bad unless it is proven to be so. And there is the word test, which I believe is the one that played me a dirty trick.
I was speaking in Castillian Spanish - excuse me, I did not notice ...
I was arriving and a journalist from Iquique asked me: We in Chile have a big problem with Bishop Barros. What do you think? I believe that the words I used were these. First I thought: 'Should I respond or not? I said yes. Why? Because Barros had been Bishop of Iquique and a parishioner of his was asking. He had a right to an answer. I said: On the day when I have proof, we'll talk. I believe I said: I do not have any proof, I think so, but I don't remember. But it is recorded, you can find it.
(The response was ...Excuse me if I continue in Spanish ...
I would talk about the evidence and, it is clear that, I know that there were many abused people who could not furnish proof, they do not have any. And they can't find any. Or sometimes they have it but they are ashamed, so they cover it up and suffer in silence. The suffering of those who have been abused is tremendous ... it is tremendous ... Two months ago, I met a woman who had been abused for forty years - forty! - She was married, with three children. This woman had not received communion since that time because in the hands of the priest, she saw the hands of her abuser. I could not approach (she said). I was a believer, I was a Catholic. I couldn't ...
So the word test was not the best word to use in approaching a sorrowful heart; I would say evidence ... In the case of Barros, the case was studied, it was re-studied, and there was no evidence, and that is what I wanted to say: there is no evidence upon which to condemn him. And in this case, if I condemn without evidence or without moral certainty, I would commit - a crime of bad judgement. But there is something else I want to say. do you understand Italian?
I will explain it in Italian. One of you came to me and told me: Did you see the letter that got out?, and showed me a letter that I had written a few years ago, when the Barros problem began. I need to explain that letter, because it is also a letter in favour of prudence with which we dealt with the Barros problem. That letter is not the narration of a precise fact; that letter is the narration of more or less ten to twelve months. When the Karadima scandal broke - he is a man about whom we all know the scandal - we began to see how many priests who had been formed by Karadima had been abused or had become abusers. In Chile, there are four bishops who Karadima had sent to the seminary. Some people from the Episcopal Conference suggested that these bishops - three of them, because a fourth one was very sick and did not have a diocese entrusted to him, but three had diocesan responsibilities - if these bishops were perhaps better off, they should resign, they should take a sabbatical year and then, after the storm had passed, in order to avoid accusations ... because they are good bishops, good bishops. ...
Like Barros: Barros was already ordained a bishop for twenty years. He was destined to finish as Military Ordinary because he had first been Auxiliary of Valparaíso, then Bishop of Iquique and then Military Ordinary for almost ten years. He says: We asked him to resign, perhaps to explain things ... and he generously presented his resignation. He came to Rome, and I told him: No. That's not how we do things. To do that would be to admit your guilt. In every case, if there is guilt, we investigate. And I refused to accept his resignation. It's been ten months since that letter was written. Then, when he was named (in Osorno), there was a large movement of protest, and he gave me his resignation for a second time. I told him: No, you go. I spoke with him a long time, others spoke with him for a long time: You go. And you know what happened there the day when he took possession of the diocese. The investigation about Barros continued: no evidence came to light. For this reason ... that's what I wanted to say. I cannot condemn him, because I have no evidence; but I too am convinced that he is innocent.
I want to continue with a third point - the issue of the letter I've clearly explained, how it all turned out - now I want to continue with a third point: how those who have been abused feel. About this, I have to ask you to excuse me, because the word trial has hurt, wounded many of the abused. Ah, do I have to go and look for that certificate, or to do this .... ? No. It is a word that translates a legal principle and it has wounded, and I ask them to forgive me if I have wounded them without realizing it, but it's a wound that has been inflicted unintentionally. And to me, this causes so much pain, because I receive them, and in Chile I received two of them who were there; and there were others who were more hidden. In Perú, no. But during every voyage, there is always a possibility. The ones I saw in Philadelphia were published, those others ... two, three were published; other cases were not published ... I know how much they suffer. To feel that the Pope has said to their faces bring me a letter with the proof, is like a slap in the face. And now, I realize that my expression was not happy, because I had not thought about that. And I understand - as the apostle Peter says in one of his letters - the fire that has been lit. This is what I can say with certainty. Barros will stay there if I do not find a way to condemn him. I cannot condemn him if I don't have - I won't say proof - if I have no evidence. And there are many ways to get evidence. Is it clear? Great.
They tell me that after the turbulence with Barros and Sodalizio, there is another more meteorological one. I would stay here. If you don't mind, we will refrain from looking at it, sitting down, wasting time: because dinner is coming soon and they will cut the press conference short. They say that the angels don't have backs: let's see ... I will stand up as long as I don't move; if we start shaking, I will continue to sit down.
Greg Burke
Let's stay in Chile with Matilde Burgos, from CNN Chile.
Matilde Burgos
CNN, Chile
Thank you very much, Your Holiness, for this voyage to our country. I see that you want the case of Barros to be very clear; that is why, before I ask my question, I want to clarify something; Why is the testimony of victims not acceptable for you as evidence? Why do you not believe them? And the second question is: To what do you attribute your consideration of your visit to Chile as a failure of the faithful and a failure of the Church to be more divided?
Pope Francis
The testimony of victims is always evidence. Always. In the case of Barros we have none: there is no evidence. Perhaps it began with that bad decision to resign and people began to accuse him. But about abuse, we don't have any evidence.
Matilde Burgos
About covering up abuses ...
Pope Francis
Yes, yes, about coverups, it is an abuse. That is to say that concealing abuse is an abuse. We have no evidence. This is why, the best thing is for the one who believes that it is that way to provide the relevant evidence right away. If they believe that it is honestly that way. At this moment, I do not believe that is the case because there is no evidence, but I have an open heart and I will receive them. The other, from Chile is a Chinese story. I was happy in Chile. I wasn't expecting so many people in the streets, and they had not paid the entrance, eh? Those people had not paid into any collection, the spontaneity of the Chilean expression was very strong; including in Iquique, which I thought was going to be something small because Iquique is in the desert. You saw what happened to people, no? The same was true in the south. And the streets of Santiago spoke for themselves. In that case, I believe that it is the responsibility of the informer to provide concrete facts. And as for people who are divided? I don't know where that is coming from. This is the first time that I've heard this. Perhaps this case of Barros is what created all this, but seeing it in the light of its reality may be helpful. However, the impression that he presented in Chile was very good and gratifying, and it seemed that he was very strong. Afterwards, I would like to return ... - at least for a moment - to what most moved me about Chile, but that will be before we move on to other issues, if we have time.
Greg Burke
Let us continue with the Italian group, Andrea Tornielli.
Andrea Tornielli
La Stampa
Yes, Holiness, I wanted to speak about what you said on the day you spent in Amazonia, because there was also an element in that speech, if you would permit me, something new, that is to say, not only the threat posed by large economic groups but also the threat - you also spoke about perversions - of some environmental policies that end up stifling some people's lives. So, is there an environmentalism that is against humanity?
Pope Francis
Yes. In that area ... At this moment, I cannot describe it well, but it protects the forest in order to save some tribes that were left out and the forest would be finished because of exploitation. But the most concrete fact in this case is in the statistics about that area. In that place, I think that you will surely find the precise information. It is a phenomenon that, in order to protect the environment, ends up by isolating: they have remained isolated from real progress; a phenomenon that can be verified there, in that area, and in information that was sent in preparation for this voyage, information which I studied. Thank you.
Greg Burke
And now, Aura Miguel, from Radio Renascença.
Aura María Vistas Miguel
Radio Renascença
Your Holiness, my question concerns the celebration of marriage aboard the plane. From now on, what would you say to parish priests, bishops, when engaged couples come and ask to be married - I don't know where - on a beach, in a park, on a boat, in the air ... What would you say?
Pope Francis
But can you imagine: cruises with weddings ... This would be ... One of you said to me that I was crazy to do these things. The thing was simple. The man was on the preceding flight, you were not there. And I spoke with him ... Afterwards, I realized that he had probed me: he had spoken about life, about what I thought about life, about family life, he spoke ... we had a good chat. Then, the next day, they were both there, and when we took the photograph, they said to me: We were going to be married in church, we were married with a civil ceremony, but the day before - we saw that they were from a small town - the church was damaged in the earthquake and there was no wedding. This happened ten years ago, perhaps 8 years ago: in 2010; there was an earthquake, 8 years ago. Yes, we will do it tomorrow, the day after tomorrow ... That's life, then we had a daughter, then another daughter ... But we always had this concern in our hearts: we are not married. I asked them a few questions, and the responses were clear: For all our lives ... And how do you know these things? Do you have a good memory of your catechism ...? No, we did the pre-marriage course. They were prepared.
To parish priests, I would say that these two were prepared, and I judged that they were prepared. They asked me: the sacraments are for human beings. All the conditions were clear. And why not do today what we can do today, and not wait until tomorrow, a tomorrow that might be 10, 8 years later? This is the response. I judged that they were prepared, that they knew what they were doing. They were both prepared in front of the Lord, with the sacrament of Penance, and then they were married. And when we arrived, everything was done ... They told me that they had said to one of you: We are going to the Pope to ask if he will witness our marriage, I don't know if it is true or not that they had that intention. That's how it was. But if I can say to parish priests that the Pope questioned them well; and then, when they told me that they had done the course ... They were conscientious, they knew that they were in an irregular situation. Thank you.
Greg Burke
Your Holiness, we have spent almost an hour; I don't know if you want to entertain perhaps one or two other questions ...
Pope Francis
Yes, about the trip.
Greg Burke
Yes, about the trip. Nicole Winfield, Associated Press.
Pope Francis
Yes, because I have said almost nothing about Perú ...
Nicole Winfield
Associated Press
Ah, no. Chile again ...
Pope Francis
Ok ...
Nicole Winfield
Associated Press
Holy Father, yesterday, Cardinal O'Malley made a declaration about those comments concerning Bishop Barros, and he said that words like these are a source of sadness for survivors (the victims) of abuse with the effect of making them feel abandoned and discredited. You have told us that you felt bad ... I suppose, and I wonder, was it just Cardinal O'Malley's words that made you understand this pain? And then another question directed to this one. The Commission for Protection of Minors, headed by Cardinal O'Malley: the deadline for the first members involvement was last month. There are some people who see this deadline and are wondering whether this is a sign that the protection of minors is not really a priority ...
Pope Francis
I understand, I understand. Cardinal O'Malley ... I saw Cardinal O'Malley's declaration, he also said: The Pope has always defended victims ... the Pope has a zero tolerance ... With this expression, which is not easy, what you said has happened, and this has made me think of the effect of the word proof ... Calumny: yes, one who says persistently, without having any evidence, that you have done this, that this person has done this, this is calumny. If I say: You stole. - No, I didn't steal ... - You stole, you stole ... I am committing calumny because I have no evidence.
The journalist intervened
But I have not heard from any of Barros' victims ...
The Pope continued:
They have not come forward, they have not given evidence to the judge. This is a bit vague, it is something that we cannot accept. You, with every good intention, tell me that there are victims, but I haven't seen any because they have not come forward. It is true that Barros was from the group of youth there, Barros entered into the seminary ... I don't know when ... but he has been Bishop today for 24 or 23 years, he was a priest at the time for about 15 years. Many years ago, he entered very young. He says that he has not seen them. He was from the group, but then he went another way. In this, we need to be clear: one who accuses without evidence, persistently, that person commits calumny. But if a person comes and presents evidence, I am the first to listen to him or to her. We have to be just in this matter, very just. I thought about what Cardinal O'Malley said, I thank him for his declaration because it was very just, e said everything that I did and everything that I am doing and that the Church is doing, and then he spoke about the suffering of the victims, not in this case, in general. Because, as I said at the beginning, there are many victims who are not able, because of shame, for other reasons, to present documents, testimony ... And this. And the second question that you asked was ...?
Greg Burke
The Commission ...
Pope Francis
The Commission. The Commission, yes, they were appointed for three years, I believe. That time has expired; we are studying the new Commission and they, the members of the Commission themselves, decided to renew their mandate in part or to accept new nominations (new members). On the Tuesday before we left, it came - before my departure for this trip - the definitive list of the commission arrived and now the normal scrutiny of the Curia is taking place. There were a few remarks about one of the candidates that must be clarified, because for the new ones, the new people, we are studying their curricula vitae, like we did ... There were two questions that need to be clarified ... However in this regard, Cardinal O'Malley has done good work, the work of the commission has been good ... No, no, please don't think ... This is a normal part of the process of appointing people ...
Greg Burke
Your Holiness, let us take one more question. If it is about the trip ...
Catherine Merciano
AFP
Your Holiness, one of the Church's goals is to fight poverty. In Chile, over the past twenty years the level of poverty has declined from 40% to 11%. According to you, is this the result of liberal policies, according to you, is there liberalism? And a second small question regarding Cardinal Maradiaga ... What do you think about the news about him concerning money?
Pope Francis
About Cardinal Maradiaga, this is not about the trip, but I will respond. He made a video declaration, there is a video, and I say what he has said.
Concerning liberalism, I would say that we need to study the cases of liberal policies very well. There are other countries in Latin America with liberal policies that have led those countries into greater poverty. In this case, I truly do not know how to respond because I am not technically advanced in this regard, but in general, a liberal policy that does not concern all the people is selective and it brings people down. But it is a general rule, in the case of Chile, I truly do not know how to respond. We can see that in other countries in Latin America things always go down.
Concerning the trip, I want to say something that moved me very much. The women's prison: my heart was there. I am always very sensitive to those who are imprisoned and always, when I go into a prison, I ask myself: why them and not me ... Seeing those women, seeing the creativity of those women, their capacity to change and to want to change their lives, to re-enter society with the strength of the gospel ... One of you told me: I saw the joy of the gospel. This moved me, truly, I was very moved by that encounter. It was one of the most beautiful things about the trip.
Then in Puerto Maldonado, that meeting with the aboriginals, let's leave that subject because it is obvious that it was very moving, it gave a sign to the whole world ... That day was the first meeting of the pre-synodal Commission in preparation for the Synod on Amazonia which will take place in 2019. But I was moved in the Principito neighbourhood: to see those children, the majority of them have been abandoned, those young men and women who have succeeded, with education, to go ahead in life ... They are professionals ... This was very moving for me. The work that raises a person up, like the things about which we spoke before can bring a person down. This was the most moving part of the journey for me.
And then the people, the warmth of the people. Here, today, it was hard to believe that that was Lima! Beyond belief! The warmth of the people ... I say: this people have faith and this faith is contagious, and I thank God for that. And I thank you for the work that you still must do to create the articles and the news that you will share. Thank you for your patience and thank you for having asked precise questions. Thank you very much.
Greg Burke
Thank you, Holiness, for your patience. Rest well, enjoy your dinner. Thank you.
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