Aboard the flight that brought him from Rabat, Morocco back to Rome last night, the Holy Father met with the journalists who were accompanying him and held his customary press conference.
Alessandro Gisotti
Interim Director of the Holy See Press Centre
Good evening Holy Father, good evening to all of you. We have a shorter flight than planned, but I think you will be happy because this will make it easier for you to return home and therefore the press conference will be a little shorter. So I will not add anything else in the introduction, except for this, Holy Father: yesterday we said servant of hope, we saw the joy, the hope, so many young people, and it is beautiful a few days after the signing of Christus vivit, which will be published in two days' time; so this is also a nice sign that came from Morocco. I don't know if you also want to add something before giving time for questions.
Pope Francis
I thank you for your company, for this voyage, for your work. It was so intense because in one day and a half, there were so many things. Thank you for your work. And now, I am at your service.
Alessandro Gisotti
Clearly, according to tradition, we begin with the local media. Siham Toufiki, do you wish to ask a question in French or in English?
Siham Toufiki
Agenzia Map
In French. There have been very touching moments and important messages during this trip. This visit is an exceptional and historic event for the Moroccan people. The question is: what will be the lasting fruit of this visit for peace in the world and for the coexistence of dialogue and culture?
Pope Francis
I would say that now there are flowers, the fruit will come later! But the flowers are promising. I am happy, because in these two trips (United Arab Emirates and Morocco) I have been able to talk about this reality that is so dear to me, so much, that is peace, unity and fraternity. With our Muslim brothers and sisters we sealed this fraternity in the Abu Dhabi Document, and here in Morocco with what we all saw: a freedom, a fraternity, a welcome; all brothers with such great respect. And this is a beautiful flower, a beautiful flower of coexistence that promises to bear fruit. We must not give up! It is true that there will still be difficulties, there will be many difficulties because unfortunately there are hard-line groups. Even this I would like to reiterate clearly: in every religion there is always a fundamentalist group that does not want to go on and lives with bitter memories of past struggles, rather, that group seeks war and sows fear. We have seen that it is more beautiful to sow hope, to sow hope and to walk holding hands, always going forward. We have seen this in the dialogue with you here in Morocco; we need bridges, and we are saddened when we see people who prefer to build walls. Why are we grieved? Because those who build walls will end up being prisoners of the walls they build. Instead those who build bridges will go so far. Building bridges is for me something that goes almost beyond humanity, because it takes a very big effort. I was very struck by the words of the writer Ivo Andrić, in Romando Il ponte sulla Drina: he says that the bridge is made by God with the wings of angels so that men can communicate, between the mountains and the banks of a river, so that men can communicate with each other. The bridge is for human communication. This is beautiful and I saw it in Morocco. On the other hand, walls are against communication, they are for isolation, and we become prisoners of those walls ... So, to sum up: the fruits are not seen but we see many flowers that will bear fruit. Let's go on like this.
Alessandro Gisotti
Holy Father, another question from the Moroccan media: Nadia Hammouchi
Nadia Hammouchi
TV 2M
Your Holiness, You have spent two days in a Muslim country. You are the leader of the Catholic Church, you met the King of Morocco who is also a Commander of believers. Therefore, you had time for exchange, to dialogue in the framework of the required rapprochement between religions, between cultures, and you also signed something concrete concerning Jerusalem. How can this visit - with all its significant moments - strengthen this dialogue, this path and how can the relationship between the leader of the Church and the Commander of the Moroccan believers be maintained?
Pope Francis
Always, when there is a fraternal dialogue, there is a relationship at various levels. Allow me an image: dialogue cannot be a laboratory, it must be human, and if it is human it must involve the mind, along with the heart and the hands, and in this way, agreements are made and signed. For example, the Common Appeal on Jerusalem was a step forward not made by an authority of Morocco and by an authority of the Vatican, but made by believing brothers who suffer because they see this City of Hope not yet as universal as we all want: Jews, Muslims and Christians. We all want this. And it was for this reason that we signed this wish: more than an agreement it is a wish, an appeal to the religious fraternity that is symbolized by that city which is all ours. We are all citizens of Jerusalem, all believers. I don't know if this was the question you wanted to ask me. I also liked the meeting with some religious leaders who were respectful and eager to talk. Your religious leaders are fraternal, they are open and this is a grace. Let's go forward on this road.
Alessandro Gisotti
Holy Father, Nicolas Senèze from La Croix will now ask his question.
Nicolas Senèze
La Croix
Good evening, Your Holiness. Yesterday, the King of Morocco said that he will protect the Moroccan Jews and the Christians from other countries who are living in Morocco. I want to ask a question about Muslims who convert to Christianity: I want to know if he is worried about these men and women who risk prison or - in some Muslim countries like the Emirates, which you visited - death? And also a question - a bit crafty! - on Cardinal Barbarin who was born in Rabat and who we visited with two days ...
Alessandro Gisotti
One question!
Nicolas Senèze
... it's a bit crafty, I know. This week the Council of the Diocese of Lyon voted almost unanimously that a lasting solution be found to its withdrawal. Setting aside the judicial fate of the Cardinal, I wanted to know if it is possible for you, who are very attached to the synodality of the Church, to hear this appeal of a diocese in such a difficult situation?
Pope Francis
I can say that in Morocco there is freedom of worship, there is religious freedom, there is freedom of belonging to a religious belief. Then freedom always develops, grows ... Think of us Christians, 300 years ago, if there was this freedom we have today. Faith grows in awareness, in the ability to understand itself. A fifth-century French monk, Vincenzo di Lerins, coined a beautiful expression to explain how one can grow in faith, explain things better, grow in morality too but always being faithful to our roots. He said three words but they mark the way: he says that growing in explication and in the awareness of faith and morals must be ut annis consolidetur, dilatetur tempore, sublimetur aetate, that is to say, growth must be consolidated over the years, extended over time , but it is the same faith that is sublimated over the years. Thus we understand, for example, that today we have removed the death penalty from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. 300 years ago, heretics burned alive. Because the Church has grown in moral conscience, with respect to the person. And the freedom of worship also grows, we too must continue to grow. There are Catholics who do not accept what Vatican II said about freedom of religion, about freedom of conscience. There are Catholics who do not accept this. We too have this problem. But even the Muslim brothers are growing in consciousness, and some countries do not understand this well or do not grow like others. In Morocco there is this growth. In this context there is the problem of conversion: some countries still do not foresee it. I don't know if it's forbidden, but in practice it is. Other countries such as Morocco do not pose a problem, they are more open, more respectful and they seek a certain way of proceeding with discretion. Other countries, with whose representatives I have spoken, say: we have no problem but we prefer that baptisms take place outside the country and then, people can return as Christians. There are ways of progressing in freedom of conscience and freedom of worship. But I am worried about something else: the regression of us Christians when we remove freedom of conscience. Think of doctors and Christian hospital employees that do not have the right to conscientious objection, for example for euthanasia. Why? The Church has moved on and you Christian countries are going backwards? Think of this because it is the truth. Today we Christians are facing the danger that some governments will take away our freedom of conscience, which is the first step to freedom of worship. The answer is not easy, but we do not accuse Muslims, we also accuse ourselves of these countries where this happens and they seek to make us feel ashamed.
Then, concerning Cardinal Barbarin. He - a man of the Church - resigned, but I cannot morally accept it because legally, even in classical world jurisprudence, there is the presumption of innocence, during the time in which the case is open. He appealed and the case is open. When the second court gives the sentence, let's see what happens. But there is always the presumption of innocence. This is important because it goes against the superficial media condemnation: He did it ... But look carefully: what does the law say? That if a cause is open there is the presumption of innocence. Perhaps he is not innocent but there is a presumption. I once spoke of a case in Spain, of how the media condemnation ruined the lives of some priests who were later found innocent. Before making a media sentence, think twice. I don't know if I have answered. He (the Cardinal) honestly preferred to say: I withdraw, I will take a voluntary leave and I leave it to the vicar general to manage the archdiocese until the court gives the final sentence. Have I got it? Thank you.
Alessandro Gisotti
Please, we need to be brief ... only one question, in order to respect all the linguistic groups. Here is Cristina Cabrejas from Efe.
Cristina Cabrejas
Agenzia Efe
Good evening, Pope Francis. I will ask my question in Italian. In yesterday's speech to the authorities you said that the migration phenomenon is not resolved with physical barriers, but here in Morocco, Spain has built two barriers with sharp blades in order to cut those they want to overcome. You met some of them at some meetings. And President Trump - in these days - has said that he wants to completely close the borders and in addition suspend aid to three Central American countries. What would you like to say to these rulers, to these politicians who still defend these decisions? Thank you.
Pope Francis
First of all, what I said a moment ago: the builders of walls, whether they are made of wire with sharp blades or bricks, will become prisoners of the walls they create. First. History will tell. Second: Jordi Évole, when he gave me the interview, showed me a piece of that thread with the blades. I tell you sincerely, I was moved and then when he left I cried. I cried because not so much cruelty enters my head and my heart. It does not enter my head and my heart to see people drown in the Mediterranean and make a wall to the ports. This is not the way to solve the serious immigration problem. I understand: a government with this problem has the hot potato in its hands, but it must solve it otherwise, humanly. When I saw that thread, with the blades, it looked incredible. Then once I had the chance to see a movie made in a prison, about refugees who are turned back. Unofficial prisons, traffickers' prisons. If you want, I can send it to you. They hurt ... they hurt. Women and children sell them, men remain. And the tortures that are seen filmed there are unbelievable. It was a film made in secret, with services. Here, I do not let in, it is true, because I have no place, but there are other countries, there is the European Union. We must speak, the whole European Union. Do not let them enter ... let them drown or send them away knowing that so many of them will fall into the hands of these traffickers who will sell women and children and kill or torture to enslave men? This video is at your disposal. Once I talked to a ruler, a man I respect and I will say the name, with Alexis Tsipras. And speaking of this and the agreements to not let them in, he explained the difficulties to me, but in the end he spoke to me with his heart and said this sentence: Human rights are before agreements. This sentence deserves the Nobel Prize.
Alessandro Gisotti
Now, Michael Schramm, from ARD, a German journalist will ask the next question.
Michael Werner Schramm
ARD Rome
I must apologize, my Italian is not good, sorry. My question: For many years, you have been fighting to protect and to help migrants, as you have done in these last days in Morocco. European politics goes precisely in the opposite direction. Europe is becoming a bastion against migrants. This policy reflects the opinion of voters. The majority of these voters are Catholic Christians. How do you feel about this sad situation?
Pope Francis
It is true that so many people of good will, not only Catholics, but good people, of good will are a little taken by fear, which is the usual sermon of populism: fear. Sowing fear and then making decisions. Fear is the beginning of dictatorships. Let's go back to the last century, to the fall of the Weimar Republic, I repeat this often. Germany needed a way out and, with promises and fears, Hitler went ahead. We know the result. Let's learn from history! This is nothing new: to sow fear is to make a collection of cruelty, closures and even sterility. Consider Europe's demographic winter. Even we who live in Italy: below zero. Think of the lack of historical memory: Europe was created throgh migration and this is its wealth. Let us think about the generosity of so many countries, which are now knocking on Europe's door, with European migrants from 84 upwards, the two post-war years, en masse, North America, Central America, South America. My father went there during the post-war reception. Europe could also have a little gratitude ... I would say two things. It is true that the first job we need to do is to try to ensure that people who migrate because of war or hunger do not have this need. But if such generous Europeans sell the weapons that kill children in Yemen, how can Europe be coherent? This is an example, Europe sells weapons. Then there is the problem of hunger, thirst. Europe, if it wants to be the mother of Europe and not the grandmother of Europe, must invest, must seek intelligently to help its population grow through education, and with investments. And these words are not mine, Chancellor Merkel spoke them. It is something that you carry on enough: to prevent emigration not by force but by generosity, education, economic investments, and so on, and this is very important. Second, how to act: it is true that a country cannot receive everyone, but there is all of Europe to distribute migrants, there is the whole of Europe. Because hospitality must be with an open heart, then it is a matter of accompanying, promoting and integrating. If a country cannot integrate, it must immediately think of speaking with other countries: how many can you accept? To give a dignified life to the people. Another example - that I experienced myself during the time of dictatorships, of the Condor operation in Buenos Aires - in Latin America: Argentina, Chile and Uruguay. It was Sweden that welcomed with an impressive generosity. They immediately learned the language, at the expense of the state, they found work, they made a home. Now Sweden is feeling a little in trouble integrating, but they say it clearly and they are asking for help. When I was in Lund, last year, or before that, I don't remember, the Prime Minister welcomed me, but then in the farewell ceremony there was a Minister, a young Minister, I believe in education. She was a little brunette because she was the daughter of a Swede and an African migrant: Sweden is one of the countries that integrates, a country that I present as an example. But this requires generosity, we need to move forward. With fear we will not go ahead, with walls we ourselves will remain closed inside these walls ... I am making a sermon, sorry!
Alessandro Gisotti
Now we have a question from Cristiana Caricato, from TV2000.
Cristiana Caricato
TV2000
Holy Father, you have just spoken about fear and about the risk of dictatorships that these fears can generate. Just today, an Italian minister, referring to the Verona conference, said that more than the family, one must be afraid of Islam. You, on the other hand, have been saying something else for years now. Do you think we are at risk of dictatorship in our country? Is it the result of the prejudice of a lack of knowledge? What do you think? And then a curiosity: you often denounce the devil's action; you did so also in the recent summit on the protection of minors. It seems to me that in the last period he is very active, the devil has done many things lately, also in the Church ... What can we do to counter it, especially with regard to pedophilia scandals? Are laws enough? Why is the devil so active right now?
Pope Francis
Very well, thanks for the question. After my speech at the end of the meeting on the protection of minors with the Presidents of the Bishops' Conferences, one newspaper said: The Pope was smart, first he said that pedophilia is a world problem, a world scourge; then he said something about the Church, in the end he washed his hands and blamed the devil. A bit simplistic, isn't it? That speech is clear. A French philosopher, in the seventies, had made a distinction that gave me a lot of light. His name was Philippe Roqueplo, and he gave me a hermeneutical light. He said: to understand a situation you have to give all the explanations and then look for meanings, what does it mean socially?, what does it mean personally, or religiously? I try to give all the explanations, even the measures of the explanations, but there is a point that cannot be understood without the mystery of evil. Think of this: virtual child pornography. There were two important meetings, one in Rome and the other in Abu Dhabi. I wonder why this phenomenon has become a reality of everyday life? Why? And I'm talking about serious statistics. How come if you want to see a sexual child abuse live, you can connect with virtual child pornography and they show it to you. Look, I don't tell lies, it's in the statistics. I wonder: can the public order makers do nothing? We in the Church will do everything we can to end this plague, we will do everything. And in that speech I gave concrete measures. These were already known even before the summit, when the Presidents of the Conferences gave me that list I gave to all of you. But are the perpetrators of this filth innocent? Those who earn money with this? In Buenos Aires, once, with two parliamentarians from the city, not from the national government, we made an order, a provision, not a law, a non-binding provision for luxury hotels, in which it was said to put (this warning) at the reception: In this hotel we do not allow amusement with minors. No one wanted to put it up. No, but you know, you can't ... It looks like we're dirty ... We know we don't, but without the sign. Can a government, for example, not identify where these things are done with children? All live footage. To say that the world plague is great, but to say also that this is not understood without the spirit of evil, is a concrete problem. We must solve it concretely, but we must also say that it is the spirit of evil. And to solve this there are two publications that I recommend: an article by Gianni Valente, I believe in Vatican Insider, where he talks about the Donatists. The danger of the Church today becoming a Donatist by making human prescriptions, which must be done, but limiting ourselves to these and forgetting the other spiritual dimensions: prayer, penance, the accusation of oneself, which we are not used to doing. It takes both! Because in order to overcome the spirit of evil one must not wash one's hands by saying: it is the work of the devil. No. We must also fight against the devil, how we must fight against human things. The other publication is from the Civiltà Cattolica. I wrote a book, in 1987, the Letters of Tribulation, which were the letters of the Father General of the Jesuits at the time when the Society was about to be dissolved. I wrote a prologue, and they did a study on the letters I wrote to the Chilean episcopate and the people of Chile, on how to act in the face of this problem: two aspects, the human, scientific, and even legal aspects, to counteract the phenomenon; and then the spiritual aspects. I did the same with the Bishops of the United States because the proposals were too centred on organization, on methodologies, and this second spiritual dimension was neglected unintentionally. With the laity, with everyone ... I would like to tell you: the Church is not a congregationist church, it is a Catholic Church, where the bishop must take matters in hand as a pastor. The Pope must take it in hand as a pastor. How do we do this? With disciplinary measures, with prayer, penance, with the accusation of oneself. And in that letter I wrote before they (the Presidents of the Bishops' Conferences) began the Spiritual Exercises, this dimension is also well explained. I would be grateful if you studied the two things: the human aspect and also the spiritual struggle. Thank you.
Alessandro Gisotti
We are really pressed for time, and now I am sorry but the press conference has become a bit long ...
Pope Francis
(concerning the other question that was asked by Cristiana Caricato) I really don't understand Italian politics. I don't understand ... I read something about a Family day in l'Espresso. I do not know what it is, I know that it is one of the many days that are celebrated ... I have read the letter that Cardinal Parolin sent and I agree. A pastoral letter, informed, a letter born of a pastor's heart. But don't ask me about Italian politics, I don't understand. Thank you.
Alessandro Gisotti
We only have a minute for a little surprise for two of our colleagues who celebrated their birthdays yesterday: Phil Pullella and Gerard O'Connell, two great colleagues, and this is a little gift from the group of your colleagues and from us.
Pope Francis
They tell me that he is older than I am ... But this one is only 45 years old and the other is only 50! Happy Birthday! Thank you and enjoy the flight, enjoy your supper and please pray for me. Thank you!
Original text in Italian
Press Conference with the Holy Father, Pope Francis
en route from Rabat to Rome
Alessandro Gisotti
Interim Director of the Holy See Press Centre
Good evening Holy Father, good evening to all of you. We have a shorter flight than planned, but I think you will be happy because this will make it easier for you to return home and therefore the press conference will be a little shorter. So I will not add anything else in the introduction, except for this, Holy Father: yesterday we said servant of hope, we saw the joy, the hope, so many young people, and it is beautiful a few days after the signing of Christus vivit, which will be published in two days' time; so this is also a nice sign that came from Morocco. I don't know if you also want to add something before giving time for questions.
Pope Francis
I thank you for your company, for this voyage, for your work. It was so intense because in one day and a half, there were so many things. Thank you for your work. And now, I am at your service.
Alessandro Gisotti
Clearly, according to tradition, we begin with the local media. Siham Toufiki, do you wish to ask a question in French or in English?
Siham Toufiki
Agenzia Map
In French. There have been very touching moments and important messages during this trip. This visit is an exceptional and historic event for the Moroccan people. The question is: what will be the lasting fruit of this visit for peace in the world and for the coexistence of dialogue and culture?
Pope Francis
I would say that now there are flowers, the fruit will come later! But the flowers are promising. I am happy, because in these two trips (United Arab Emirates and Morocco) I have been able to talk about this reality that is so dear to me, so much, that is peace, unity and fraternity. With our Muslim brothers and sisters we sealed this fraternity in the Abu Dhabi Document, and here in Morocco with what we all saw: a freedom, a fraternity, a welcome; all brothers with such great respect. And this is a beautiful flower, a beautiful flower of coexistence that promises to bear fruit. We must not give up! It is true that there will still be difficulties, there will be many difficulties because unfortunately there are hard-line groups. Even this I would like to reiterate clearly: in every religion there is always a fundamentalist group that does not want to go on and lives with bitter memories of past struggles, rather, that group seeks war and sows fear. We have seen that it is more beautiful to sow hope, to sow hope and to walk holding hands, always going forward. We have seen this in the dialogue with you here in Morocco; we need bridges, and we are saddened when we see people who prefer to build walls. Why are we grieved? Because those who build walls will end up being prisoners of the walls they build. Instead those who build bridges will go so far. Building bridges is for me something that goes almost beyond humanity, because it takes a very big effort. I was very struck by the words of the writer Ivo Andrić, in Romando Il ponte sulla Drina: he says that the bridge is made by God with the wings of angels so that men can communicate, between the mountains and the banks of a river, so that men can communicate with each other. The bridge is for human communication. This is beautiful and I saw it in Morocco. On the other hand, walls are against communication, they are for isolation, and we become prisoners of those walls ... So, to sum up: the fruits are not seen but we see many flowers that will bear fruit. Let's go on like this.
Alessandro Gisotti
Holy Father, another question from the Moroccan media: Nadia Hammouchi
Nadia Hammouchi
TV 2M
Your Holiness, You have spent two days in a Muslim country. You are the leader of the Catholic Church, you met the King of Morocco who is also a Commander of believers. Therefore, you had time for exchange, to dialogue in the framework of the required rapprochement between religions, between cultures, and you also signed something concrete concerning Jerusalem. How can this visit - with all its significant moments - strengthen this dialogue, this path and how can the relationship between the leader of the Church and the Commander of the Moroccan believers be maintained?
Pope Francis
Always, when there is a fraternal dialogue, there is a relationship at various levels. Allow me an image: dialogue cannot be a laboratory, it must be human, and if it is human it must involve the mind, along with the heart and the hands, and in this way, agreements are made and signed. For example, the Common Appeal on Jerusalem was a step forward not made by an authority of Morocco and by an authority of the Vatican, but made by believing brothers who suffer because they see this City of Hope not yet as universal as we all want: Jews, Muslims and Christians. We all want this. And it was for this reason that we signed this wish: more than an agreement it is a wish, an appeal to the religious fraternity that is symbolized by that city which is all ours. We are all citizens of Jerusalem, all believers. I don't know if this was the question you wanted to ask me. I also liked the meeting with some religious leaders who were respectful and eager to talk. Your religious leaders are fraternal, they are open and this is a grace. Let's go forward on this road.
Alessandro Gisotti
Holy Father, Nicolas Senèze from La Croix will now ask his question.
Nicolas Senèze
La Croix
Good evening, Your Holiness. Yesterday, the King of Morocco said that he will protect the Moroccan Jews and the Christians from other countries who are living in Morocco. I want to ask a question about Muslims who convert to Christianity: I want to know if he is worried about these men and women who risk prison or - in some Muslim countries like the Emirates, which you visited - death? And also a question - a bit crafty! - on Cardinal Barbarin who was born in Rabat and who we visited with two days ...
Alessandro Gisotti
One question!
Nicolas Senèze
... it's a bit crafty, I know. This week the Council of the Diocese of Lyon voted almost unanimously that a lasting solution be found to its withdrawal. Setting aside the judicial fate of the Cardinal, I wanted to know if it is possible for you, who are very attached to the synodality of the Church, to hear this appeal of a diocese in such a difficult situation?
Pope Francis
I can say that in Morocco there is freedom of worship, there is religious freedom, there is freedom of belonging to a religious belief. Then freedom always develops, grows ... Think of us Christians, 300 years ago, if there was this freedom we have today. Faith grows in awareness, in the ability to understand itself. A fifth-century French monk, Vincenzo di Lerins, coined a beautiful expression to explain how one can grow in faith, explain things better, grow in morality too but always being faithful to our roots. He said three words but they mark the way: he says that growing in explication and in the awareness of faith and morals must be ut annis consolidetur, dilatetur tempore, sublimetur aetate, that is to say, growth must be consolidated over the years, extended over time , but it is the same faith that is sublimated over the years. Thus we understand, for example, that today we have removed the death penalty from the Catechism of the Catholic Church. 300 years ago, heretics burned alive. Because the Church has grown in moral conscience, with respect to the person. And the freedom of worship also grows, we too must continue to grow. There are Catholics who do not accept what Vatican II said about freedom of religion, about freedom of conscience. There are Catholics who do not accept this. We too have this problem. But even the Muslim brothers are growing in consciousness, and some countries do not understand this well or do not grow like others. In Morocco there is this growth. In this context there is the problem of conversion: some countries still do not foresee it. I don't know if it's forbidden, but in practice it is. Other countries such as Morocco do not pose a problem, they are more open, more respectful and they seek a certain way of proceeding with discretion. Other countries, with whose representatives I have spoken, say: we have no problem but we prefer that baptisms take place outside the country and then, people can return as Christians. There are ways of progressing in freedom of conscience and freedom of worship. But I am worried about something else: the regression of us Christians when we remove freedom of conscience. Think of doctors and Christian hospital employees that do not have the right to conscientious objection, for example for euthanasia. Why? The Church has moved on and you Christian countries are going backwards? Think of this because it is the truth. Today we Christians are facing the danger that some governments will take away our freedom of conscience, which is the first step to freedom of worship. The answer is not easy, but we do not accuse Muslims, we also accuse ourselves of these countries where this happens and they seek to make us feel ashamed.
Then, concerning Cardinal Barbarin. He - a man of the Church - resigned, but I cannot morally accept it because legally, even in classical world jurisprudence, there is the presumption of innocence, during the time in which the case is open. He appealed and the case is open. When the second court gives the sentence, let's see what happens. But there is always the presumption of innocence. This is important because it goes against the superficial media condemnation: He did it ... But look carefully: what does the law say? That if a cause is open there is the presumption of innocence. Perhaps he is not innocent but there is a presumption. I once spoke of a case in Spain, of how the media condemnation ruined the lives of some priests who were later found innocent. Before making a media sentence, think twice. I don't know if I have answered. He (the Cardinal) honestly preferred to say: I withdraw, I will take a voluntary leave and I leave it to the vicar general to manage the archdiocese until the court gives the final sentence. Have I got it? Thank you.
Alessandro Gisotti
Please, we need to be brief ... only one question, in order to respect all the linguistic groups. Here is Cristina Cabrejas from Efe.
Cristina Cabrejas
Agenzia Efe
Good evening, Pope Francis. I will ask my question in Italian. In yesterday's speech to the authorities you said that the migration phenomenon is not resolved with physical barriers, but here in Morocco, Spain has built two barriers with sharp blades in order to cut those they want to overcome. You met some of them at some meetings. And President Trump - in these days - has said that he wants to completely close the borders and in addition suspend aid to three Central American countries. What would you like to say to these rulers, to these politicians who still defend these decisions? Thank you.
Pope Francis
First of all, what I said a moment ago: the builders of walls, whether they are made of wire with sharp blades or bricks, will become prisoners of the walls they create. First. History will tell. Second: Jordi Évole, when he gave me the interview, showed me a piece of that thread with the blades. I tell you sincerely, I was moved and then when he left I cried. I cried because not so much cruelty enters my head and my heart. It does not enter my head and my heart to see people drown in the Mediterranean and make a wall to the ports. This is not the way to solve the serious immigration problem. I understand: a government with this problem has the hot potato in its hands, but it must solve it otherwise, humanly. When I saw that thread, with the blades, it looked incredible. Then once I had the chance to see a movie made in a prison, about refugees who are turned back. Unofficial prisons, traffickers' prisons. If you want, I can send it to you. They hurt ... they hurt. Women and children sell them, men remain. And the tortures that are seen filmed there are unbelievable. It was a film made in secret, with services. Here, I do not let in, it is true, because I have no place, but there are other countries, there is the European Union. We must speak, the whole European Union. Do not let them enter ... let them drown or send them away knowing that so many of them will fall into the hands of these traffickers who will sell women and children and kill or torture to enslave men? This video is at your disposal. Once I talked to a ruler, a man I respect and I will say the name, with Alexis Tsipras. And speaking of this and the agreements to not let them in, he explained the difficulties to me, but in the end he spoke to me with his heart and said this sentence: Human rights are before agreements. This sentence deserves the Nobel Prize.
Alessandro Gisotti
Now, Michael Schramm, from ARD, a German journalist will ask the next question.
Michael Werner Schramm
ARD Rome
I must apologize, my Italian is not good, sorry. My question: For many years, you have been fighting to protect and to help migrants, as you have done in these last days in Morocco. European politics goes precisely in the opposite direction. Europe is becoming a bastion against migrants. This policy reflects the opinion of voters. The majority of these voters are Catholic Christians. How do you feel about this sad situation?
Pope Francis
It is true that so many people of good will, not only Catholics, but good people, of good will are a little taken by fear, which is the usual sermon of populism: fear. Sowing fear and then making decisions. Fear is the beginning of dictatorships. Let's go back to the last century, to the fall of the Weimar Republic, I repeat this often. Germany needed a way out and, with promises and fears, Hitler went ahead. We know the result. Let's learn from history! This is nothing new: to sow fear is to make a collection of cruelty, closures and even sterility. Consider Europe's demographic winter. Even we who live in Italy: below zero. Think of the lack of historical memory: Europe was created throgh migration and this is its wealth. Let us think about the generosity of so many countries, which are now knocking on Europe's door, with European migrants from 84 upwards, the two post-war years, en masse, North America, Central America, South America. My father went there during the post-war reception. Europe could also have a little gratitude ... I would say two things. It is true that the first job we need to do is to try to ensure that people who migrate because of war or hunger do not have this need. But if such generous Europeans sell the weapons that kill children in Yemen, how can Europe be coherent? This is an example, Europe sells weapons. Then there is the problem of hunger, thirst. Europe, if it wants to be the mother of Europe and not the grandmother of Europe, must invest, must seek intelligently to help its population grow through education, and with investments. And these words are not mine, Chancellor Merkel spoke them. It is something that you carry on enough: to prevent emigration not by force but by generosity, education, economic investments, and so on, and this is very important. Second, how to act: it is true that a country cannot receive everyone, but there is all of Europe to distribute migrants, there is the whole of Europe. Because hospitality must be with an open heart, then it is a matter of accompanying, promoting and integrating. If a country cannot integrate, it must immediately think of speaking with other countries: how many can you accept? To give a dignified life to the people. Another example - that I experienced myself during the time of dictatorships, of the Condor operation in Buenos Aires - in Latin America: Argentina, Chile and Uruguay. It was Sweden that welcomed with an impressive generosity. They immediately learned the language, at the expense of the state, they found work, they made a home. Now Sweden is feeling a little in trouble integrating, but they say it clearly and they are asking for help. When I was in Lund, last year, or before that, I don't remember, the Prime Minister welcomed me, but then in the farewell ceremony there was a Minister, a young Minister, I believe in education. She was a little brunette because she was the daughter of a Swede and an African migrant: Sweden is one of the countries that integrates, a country that I present as an example. But this requires generosity, we need to move forward. With fear we will not go ahead, with walls we ourselves will remain closed inside these walls ... I am making a sermon, sorry!
Alessandro Gisotti
Now we have a question from Cristiana Caricato, from TV2000.
Cristiana Caricato
TV2000
Holy Father, you have just spoken about fear and about the risk of dictatorships that these fears can generate. Just today, an Italian minister, referring to the Verona conference, said that more than the family, one must be afraid of Islam. You, on the other hand, have been saying something else for years now. Do you think we are at risk of dictatorship in our country? Is it the result of the prejudice of a lack of knowledge? What do you think? And then a curiosity: you often denounce the devil's action; you did so also in the recent summit on the protection of minors. It seems to me that in the last period he is very active, the devil has done many things lately, also in the Church ... What can we do to counter it, especially with regard to pedophilia scandals? Are laws enough? Why is the devil so active right now?
Pope Francis
Very well, thanks for the question. After my speech at the end of the meeting on the protection of minors with the Presidents of the Bishops' Conferences, one newspaper said: The Pope was smart, first he said that pedophilia is a world problem, a world scourge; then he said something about the Church, in the end he washed his hands and blamed the devil. A bit simplistic, isn't it? That speech is clear. A French philosopher, in the seventies, had made a distinction that gave me a lot of light. His name was Philippe Roqueplo, and he gave me a hermeneutical light. He said: to understand a situation you have to give all the explanations and then look for meanings, what does it mean socially?, what does it mean personally, or religiously? I try to give all the explanations, even the measures of the explanations, but there is a point that cannot be understood without the mystery of evil. Think of this: virtual child pornography. There were two important meetings, one in Rome and the other in Abu Dhabi. I wonder why this phenomenon has become a reality of everyday life? Why? And I'm talking about serious statistics. How come if you want to see a sexual child abuse live, you can connect with virtual child pornography and they show it to you. Look, I don't tell lies, it's in the statistics. I wonder: can the public order makers do nothing? We in the Church will do everything we can to end this plague, we will do everything. And in that speech I gave concrete measures. These were already known even before the summit, when the Presidents of the Conferences gave me that list I gave to all of you. But are the perpetrators of this filth innocent? Those who earn money with this? In Buenos Aires, once, with two parliamentarians from the city, not from the national government, we made an order, a provision, not a law, a non-binding provision for luxury hotels, in which it was said to put (this warning) at the reception: In this hotel we do not allow amusement with minors. No one wanted to put it up. No, but you know, you can't ... It looks like we're dirty ... We know we don't, but without the sign. Can a government, for example, not identify where these things are done with children? All live footage. To say that the world plague is great, but to say also that this is not understood without the spirit of evil, is a concrete problem. We must solve it concretely, but we must also say that it is the spirit of evil. And to solve this there are two publications that I recommend: an article by Gianni Valente, I believe in Vatican Insider, where he talks about the Donatists. The danger of the Church today becoming a Donatist by making human prescriptions, which must be done, but limiting ourselves to these and forgetting the other spiritual dimensions: prayer, penance, the accusation of oneself, which we are not used to doing. It takes both! Because in order to overcome the spirit of evil one must not wash one's hands by saying: it is the work of the devil. No. We must also fight against the devil, how we must fight against human things. The other publication is from the Civiltà Cattolica. I wrote a book, in 1987, the Letters of Tribulation, which were the letters of the Father General of the Jesuits at the time when the Society was about to be dissolved. I wrote a prologue, and they did a study on the letters I wrote to the Chilean episcopate and the people of Chile, on how to act in the face of this problem: two aspects, the human, scientific, and even legal aspects, to counteract the phenomenon; and then the spiritual aspects. I did the same with the Bishops of the United States because the proposals were too centred on organization, on methodologies, and this second spiritual dimension was neglected unintentionally. With the laity, with everyone ... I would like to tell you: the Church is not a congregationist church, it is a Catholic Church, where the bishop must take matters in hand as a pastor. The Pope must take it in hand as a pastor. How do we do this? With disciplinary measures, with prayer, penance, with the accusation of oneself. And in that letter I wrote before they (the Presidents of the Bishops' Conferences) began the Spiritual Exercises, this dimension is also well explained. I would be grateful if you studied the two things: the human aspect and also the spiritual struggle. Thank you.
Alessandro Gisotti
We are really pressed for time, and now I am sorry but the press conference has become a bit long ...
Pope Francis
(concerning the other question that was asked by Cristiana Caricato) I really don't understand Italian politics. I don't understand ... I read something about a Family day in l'Espresso. I do not know what it is, I know that it is one of the many days that are celebrated ... I have read the letter that Cardinal Parolin sent and I agree. A pastoral letter, informed, a letter born of a pastor's heart. But don't ask me about Italian politics, I don't understand. Thank you.
Alessandro Gisotti
We only have a minute for a little surprise for two of our colleagues who celebrated their birthdays yesterday: Phil Pullella and Gerard O'Connell, two great colleagues, and this is a little gift from the group of your colleagues and from us.
Pope Francis
They tell me that he is older than I am ... But this one is only 45 years old and the other is only 50! Happy Birthday! Thank you and enjoy the flight, enjoy your supper and please pray for me. Thank you!
Original text in Italian
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